Posted by Trung
on 2/2/2012, 10:02 pm, in reply to "Re: "you need to buy a book" "
119.10.143.189
The politics?, The lyrics?,The voice?, The general sound?
--Previous Message--
: I personally can't stand Midnight Oil much.
:
: --Previous Message--
: I'll be honest here, I respect Robert
: Johnson
: from a purely intellectual perspective for
: his involvement in the development of the
: rock genre.
:
: However enjoying his work is a bit
: different. Although I do like a few of his
: songs and when I play it as background
: music, I enjoy it but I can't say it sticks
: with me after listening to it and I can't
: say it blows me away. If you search "It
: depends on how you define originality"
: on this forum, you get my views on
: originality in music.
:
: I'll just say that I tend to judge
: songwriting from the technical components
: (Listenability, Emotional Resonance,
: Depth/Arrangement, Atmosphere and Pacing)
: rather than using historical arguments and
: sometimes I think one person can say a song
: is original and another person say the song
: is obsolete and I can empathise with the
: latter.
:
: My view on treating originality as only a
: secondary criteria in judging music is
: partly because historical development
: doesn't make me like the song more from an
: emotional point of view, partly due to my
: partial ignorance of the historical
: development and partly because I have to
: downgrade Radiohead as my all time favourite
: band and therefore I can't have a criteria
: in judging music that prevents them from
: being a 5 star band :)
: _____
:
: Midnight Oil, a bit of a caution about that
: band is that the lead singer has a very
: unique voice that a lot of people have a
: hard time getting around. If someone is
: familiar with punk music then Peter Garrett
: voice may be more accessible but for people
: who dislike or only mildly like the genre,
: then it takes a while to get used to it. I
: can imagine someone like John McFerrin who
: had trouble getting into Television due to
: the vocals would find Midnight Oil even more
: difficult to get into. people from Australia
: may be more used to his voice as this band
: is a cultural icon here but when I played
: the music to people from overseas, they get
: incredibly baffled by his singing.
:
: Head Injuries is a unique album of the
: career and therefore if you like that album,
: there's no guarantee that you like any other
: of their albums. This is Midnight Oil most
: hard rocking album and they gradually became
: more and more mellow with each subsequent
: album (although they did write one art rock
: album with 10-1) and eventually reaching
: adult contemporary territory. IMO I don't
: think Peter Garrett voice suits the more
: poppy and mellow sound in their later career
:
: Also Head Injuries has less overt
: politically conscious lyrics (although it
: still there though). In Australia, anytime
: anyone mentions this band, the first thing
: that comes to mine is there left-wing
: politics and their activism and when they
: were inducted in the ARIA hall of fame
: (australian musician hall of fame) the
: summary of their career didn't mention this
: album and mostly focus on their politics
: more than the music (I hate that as well
: because when I recommend this band to other
: people, they just say, it's too political).
: Peter garrett the lead singer of Midnight
: Oil is a politician and member of the labour
: party and is currently the Minister of
: School Education, Early Childhood and Youth.
: They also focus on local political issues in
: Australia and therefore someone overseas may
: not 'get' their lyrics. Starostin argued
: that later on in their career, they focus to
: much on the politics and less with the music
: and I agreed with that statement, in fact
: their mellowing their sound to adult
: contemporary was politically motivated as
: they wrote pro-aboriginal rights songs but
: when they perform it to indigenous
: australian they didn't respond well to it as
: they were more used to country/folk music
: which were more popular in that area which
: kind of inspired them to mellow their sound.
:
: I'll say the reason why i responded so well
: to Head Injuries was due to my reaction to
: the bands like The smiths, early REM and U2
: and The cure. I have wrote comments
: mentioning anti-guitar hero philosophy a lot
: of times on John's page and this is because
: I inherently believe in that philosophy of
: guitar playing that a great guitarist knows
: their place and is subservient to the song
: instead of using a song as a vehicle to
: express their technical skills. However as
: much as I love that style of guitar playing,
: I felt that the likes of Johnny Marr was too
: ideological about it, sure a guitarist
: should be subservient to the song but that
: doesn't mean having the guitar stand out in
: the mix, having kick arse guitar solo,
: having distortion in the guitar can't be
: used to improve the song. IMO songs like How
: Soon is now could have been improved with
: more flashy guitar playing (Johnny Marr
: probably agreed as when he plays this song
: live now, it has a flashy guitar solo).
: Just because there was more to guitar
: playing than the ability to play wanky
: guitar leads doesn't mean that wanky guitar
: leads aren't an important part of the
: guitarist arsenal.
:
: So i had a flash of inspiration, i should
: write a song that merges the intricate
: guitar playing of the post-punk bands like
: The Smiths, REM, U2 etc and merge it with
: hard rock. have jangly guitar strumming and
: arpeggio mixed with distorted kick arse
: riffs
:
: That song never got written as a week later,
: I heard of Head Injuries which did
: everything that my flash of
: "original" inspiration wanted to
: hear and that album address all my criticism
: I had of the anti-guitar heroes (although
: admittingly it lacks the ultra-technical
: guitar solo though). (although it was a
: setback to my songwriting though as I wonder
: whether I was capable of an original
: songwriting idea) That's why this album is
: very very special to me.
:
: The songs that best represent the merger of
: hard rock and post-punk and infused with the
: aggressive spirit of punk rock is "Is
: It Now?" (sounds like a hard rock
: version of early Cure) and "Back On The
: Borderline" (I just love the
: instrumental break in this song where it
: begins with some jangly pop then followed by
: blistering hard rock guitar riff)
:
: in hindsight, the idea of mixing intricate
: guitar playing with hard rock has been done
: before by the likes of Jimi Hendrix and Pete
: Townsend but they were from a rhythm and
: blues variety. Midnight Oil head injuries
: came from a post-punk variety which gives
: makes it different enough to be unique.
:
: Although, I have a saying that
: "something is original when it rips off
: something that you never heard of
: before". I wouldn't downgrade this
: album if that turns out to be true (the only
: way I downgrade an album is if it turns out
: another album does the same style but
: better) but it would be nice to find out the
: truth behind it.
:
: Some good reviews of midnight oil, Starostin
: did a good review of their earlier albums
: here
: http://starling.rinet.ru/music/midnight.htm
: and Brian Burk
:
: http://starling.rinet.ru/music/temp/midnightoil.html
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Like I said, I'd love to help, but I really
: can't remember where I've gotten all my
: information. A variety of different
: sources, basically, both online and in
: print.
:
: As for originality, I do think that it has a
: fairly big role to play in how much I enjoy
: something. Take the aforementioned Robert
: Johnson. Let's say, hypothetically, somehow
: rock and roll progressed as it did anyways
: without Robert Johnson existing (it
: wouldn't, but work with me here). Then
: let's say Robert Johnson started releasing
: music in the mid-70's. Would it hold up?
: Well, I mean, it would still be very
: well-played, but it would also be played out
: - everybody and their mother played like he
: does at that point. It wouldn't make a
: lasting impression.
:
: But that's not what happened, and instead
: listening to Robert Johnson sounds very
: fresh and innovative to my ears, and I can
: appreciate what he's doing in its context.
:
: As for information on Robert Johnson, I've
: gleaned what I know about him through a
: combination of the liner notes with the
: complete recordings, interviews with those
: influenced by him, wikipedia, and also this
: book, which I read a couple years ago when I
: checked it out at a library:
:
:
:
:
: http://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Delta-Robert-Johnson-Invention/dp/0060524278/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328035126&sr=1-2
:
: It was pretty good, from what I recall.
:
: And for the record, I've never heard
: anything by Midnight Oil, but after your
: glowing praise of them I might consider
: picking up an album or two of theirs.
:
: --Previous Message--
: ahh, the topic was requesting a good book
: recommendation. Or was what you are talking
: about a book that specialises on Robert
: Johnson.
:
: I have a feeling that for me to get an
: overview over the technical development of
: rock music, I have to buy good books on
: numerous individual bands throughout rock
: history rather than one book that summarises
: it all.
:
: I guess the current frustration I have right
: now is that, sometimes listen to music (or
: even sometimes I write music) that I think
: sounds unique and original. However because
: I don't know the development of rock music,
: I can't say for sure whether it is original,
: revolutionary etc. I have question John
: Mcferrin in this forum about not using
: originality as a primary and major criteria
: for rating music. Although I do try and
: defend it, a part of me thinks that perhaps
: the reason why I am arguing this is because
: of my own ignorance of originality.
:
: An example, Midnight Oil album Head
: Injuries. To me that is one of the most
: unique albums I have ever listen to and I
: would like to call it a revolutionary album.
: Why? Because it merges post-punk music with
: hard rock. It's like imagining that Johnny
: Marr or Peter Buck or Robert Smith join
: AC/DC and they had a punkish lead singer.
: Where the songs alternates from jangly
: pop-ish intricate guitar playing, or even
: gothic like gloomy music and then launches
: in a fiery kick ass riffs and guitar solo.
: Sort of merges the anti-guitar hero and
: guitar hero style guitar playing so well (I
: personally give it a F in McFerrin scale as
: I think it just pure brilliance and there
: isn't another album in my music collection
: that sounds like that album)
:
: However, I never heard anyone describe that
: album as a landmark revolutionary album (not
: even Midnight Oil fans do that as I have a
: feeling that they like the band more for the
: politically orientated lyrics more than
: anything else). I don't know about the
: history of rock to say conclusively whether
: that is a revolutionary album as maybe
: someone has done it before and I never heard
: of it. Maybe someone has done it afterwards
: and therefore it is not as unique as I
: thought it was. I don't know.
:
: I guess, I would like to know more so I can
: make statements like that (I sort of wonder
: where does Starostin gets the information
: from when he boldly declares an album to be
: "revolutionary")
:
: I also feel it would help my songwriting to
: get a clearer idea of what has been done
: before, so I can have a stab of being
: "original"
: --Previous Message--
: I used to think "post-punk" as
: bass-driven with a monotonal beat myself,
: but that sub-genre covers a lot of ground,
: basically it was anything that flowed from
: the 1st wave of punk, and even includes funk
: elements and dub-reggae.
:
: As for "power pop", it basically
: just means anything that is catchy with
: simple chords, whilst the focus being mostly
: on guitars. And yes, lyrics do play a part,
: they're usually sappy love songs.
:
: I don't think wiki is all that incorrect
: over these two genres, and there's basically
: a lot of debate over them by music geeks.
:
: As for first "rock and roll
: artist", there's an even bigger debate
: - from Ike Turner to Louis Brown. I'd throw
: in my 2 cents and say Robert Johnson cos he
: fits the archetype.
:
: And if you want a technical discussion of
: Johnson's style, you need to buy a book, as
: none of that info will ever be given free.
:
: Hope I'm of help.
:
: K. Thx. Bai.
: --Previous Message--
: Wiki seems ok for a brief overview and the
: major artist of a particular genre but I'm
: guessing I'm looking for more specific
: technical innovation.
: Such as quoting Jonathan review of Robert
: Johnson "He also pioneered the entire
: idea of playing a bass line over the melody
: of the actual song, at the same time and on
: the same guitar as the actual song, and
: while singing at the same time as doing all
: of that"
:
: How would someone know that information
: without look up a specific biography of that
: artist itself (which in all honesty kind of
: defeats the purpose because I'm kind of
: looking for artist to discover).
:
: I also think that wiki goes to very little
: detail over the stylistic of a genre. Their
: definition of post-punk doesn't seem
: particularly satisfactory to me. Is it just
: introverted and experimental punk music?
:
: From my listening to bands who are
: considered post-punk, I concluded that those
: bands tend to have songs that are
: bass-driven and strong emphasis on the
: rhythm section and the guitar being used for
: more textural effects and that post-punk
: bands tends to have a singer-songwriter
: attitude (although not always).
:
: I'm not too sure if my conclusion matches
: with the official definition of that genre,
: nevertheless I don't see many genre
: definition goes into technical description
: of the music and who exactly was responsible
: for that development.
:
: ___
: It's interesting though reading the wiki
: about how there are no specific "first
: rock and roll song or artist". Yet
: Starostin boldly claim that little richard
: is the first rock and roll artist and I
: don't see little richard being quoted as
: even a nominee to th e first rock and roll
: artist in the wiki page.
:
:
: another curious thing, starostin was quoted
: in the rock music wiki "Starostin
: argues that most of what is traditionally
: called "power pop" falls i into
: the pop rock subgenre and that the lyrical
: content of pop rock is "normally
: secondary to the music."
:
: Now that I think about it but doesn't that
: definition of pop rock music seems weird.
: When I think about pop music, I generally
: don't associate the pop genre to be any more
: or less emphasis to lyrics as any other
: genre. I consider art rock and prog rock
: music to be more emphasis on the music than
: the lyrics whilst something like folk or
: singer-songwriter to be more focus on the
: lyrics.
: --Previous Message--
: just start with the generic "rock"
: label and work from there
:
: they have links to sources for further
: reading at the end of each subject
:
: --Previous Message--
: Despite learning a lot from reading some of
: these reviews site. I still feel like I'm
: still in a bit of a dark about the history
: and development of rock and roll and I still
: can't really pin point the various
: revolutionary and advancement of rock music
: beyond the basic well known events (such as
: Dylan going electric, Sgt. Peppers etc).
: Even in George Starostin website where he
: assigns album as "revolutionary",
: a lot of the times I still don't know why
: they were revolutionary (I still have no
: idea how the police somehow reinvent the
: structure of the pop song like George claim
: etc).
:
: I guess considering that one of the criteria
: of rating music that people bring up is
: "originality", even if I do one
: day decide to take major consideration in
: originality, I wouldn't be able to because I
: don't know what is original.
:
: So I'm hoping there would be some good
: resources for me to look up about the
: development of rock music. I did see the
: rolling stones "history" of rock
: music but considering that a lot of people
: reckon that they are hostile to prog rock, I
: didn't buy it.
:
: Also anything that recommends me more good
: music and albums would be great.
:
: Does anyone know any good books or even
: videos or documentaries that gives me a good
: overview.
:
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