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    Professor Serhii Plokhy's ridiculous interview on RNZ National Archived Message

    Posted by Morrissey on July 4, 2023, 11:35 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018896687/serhii-plokhy-the-history-and-future-of-the-ukrainian-war

    Serhii Plokhy interviewed by Kim Hill
    RNZ National, Saturday 1 July 2023, 11:05 A.M.

    KIM HILL: Historians usually write about the past. Self-evident, with the benefit of knowing how things turned out. But Harvard academic and best-selling author, MOST respected historian Serhii Plokhy was so SHAKEN by the Russian invasion of his homeland last year he felt compelled to write about it im-MED-iately. His book is called The Russo-Ukrainian War, and it traces the historical origins of the invasion, and the invasion itself, which began in February 2022. And he looks at the wider consequences for the world, in fact he argues that Ukraine's defiance of Russia, and the West's support, presents a profound challenge to Putin's ambitions, and Professor Plokhy joins me now. Hello.

    SERHII PLOKHY: Hello, Kim. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me on your program.

    KIM HILL: Very nice to talk to you. In fact you argue that what Putin has done creates a Ukraine that could not have existed had he not invaded it. Please explain.

    SERHII PLOKHY: Ahhh, certainly Vladimir Putin believed that Ukraine was not a real state, that Ukrainians were Russians, so did not exist as a nation, did not have the right to exist, and he was up for a huge surprise. He expected that Russian troops would be welcomed with flowers and they were welcomed with weapons. The plan was to capture Kiev within three days, and Ukraine was supposed to fall within three weeks. We are now in the second year of the war and really Ukrainian resilience, Ukrainian sense of unity is stronger at this point today than it was certainly at the start of the war or probably at any moment in the 21st century.

    KIM HILL: You argue that the war in fact began not in February 2022 but when Putin annexed Crimea. And I understand why you would say that, but there is a VIEW that Crimea was GIVEN to Ukraine by Kruschev. It had a largely---HAS a largely---Russian population, wanted to stay within the Russian system, it was not unnatural for Putin to claim Crimea. What do you say to that?

    SERHII PLOKHY: Ahhhhh, this is the sort of an argument of appeasement of the aggressor that, uh, REALLY, was sort of popular in the 1930s when it comes to Anschluss, the German annexation of Austria, the argument was then, "Yes it was done illegally but isn't this fear that all the Germans would live in one German state, didn't Austrians wanted that, didn't they ask for that?" So now the same argument more than half a century later about Putin and Crimea: "Yes it was illegal but isn't this only fair, and expectations back in the 1930s and then in 2014 was that that's where the aggressor would stop; why would not give that either to Hitler or to Putin, and we'll get peace in our time." So for me as a historian that really reminds about 1930s. In terms of what happened in the Crimea: Ukraine had a referendum for independence back in '91 where the majority of the population in the country, including in the Crimea, voted for independence, and it was a referendum that was monitored by international observers. And then there was military takeover of the peninsula in February 2014. The special forces took over the building of the Crimean parliament and then said that the referendum for alleged independence where no international observers were allowed. So we really don't know what the people of Crimea wanted in February 2014. The only data that we have comes from '91 and they voted for staying part of Ukraine and for independent Ukraine.

    KIM HILL: I, I put these points to you because I really want you to explain. I keep getting them put to ME. So, it goes: "After the U.S.-supported COUP in 2014, and a regime set up by America took over, the-e-e-e Russian language was BANNED, naturally-y-y-y Crimeans wanted to sece-e-e-ede BACK to Russia, and voted to DO this. So although Zelensky demands the return of Crimea, there is no legality behind it." Please comment briefly on that, and then we can move on. Ha!

    SERHII PLOKHY: Ah, sure. Absolutely. Ah, first of all there was no coup in um, mmmm, Kiev. Ah, second of all, ah, the United States didn't back the coup. So there was a popular uprising called the Revolution of Dignity and, er, the president of Ukraine at that time, Yanukovich, just FLED, fled Kiev, and the law that was passed didn't ban Ukrainian---sorry, didn't ban Russian. So all of these are part of, really, Russia's propaganda and we know that the Crimea, as I said already, Crimea was taken over by Russian military. And then the war started in the east of Ukraine in Donbass, where the Minister of Defence of the puppet state the Crimea come from Moscow, was parachuted from Moscow. So it is again going back to the 1930s, this is a sort of operation that Germany was doing in Czechoslovakia1938, 1939, ah, military operation, militarizing the minorities and then presenting a really false case of this whole thing being allegedly, allegedly legal.

    KIM HILL: DO you say-y-y-y-y that before February 2022, out of the Revolution of Dignity 2013-14 seemed to emerge something called the Azov Battalion, who had certain Nazi sympathies, which fed into Putin's claims of Ukrainian fascism and saving Donbass from neo-Nazis. What's your take on that?

    SERHII PLOKHY: Ahhh, well, uh, what we have is that, um, er, in Ukraine what probably is happening in every, every country worldwide. There ARE elements of radical nationalism. There ARE elements of radical nationalism bordering ideologically or symbolically or otherwise on fascism. This is, this is all true. So now the context, the context is that in Ukraine today we have no-o-o-o-o representation of the nationalist parties in the parliament, because they just couldn't cross the five per cent threshold. This is at the time when the nationalists are nearly winning elections in Western Europe. Ukraine has the only Jewish president outside of Israel, popularly elected, very popular in Ukraine today, uh, and it's very very interesting phenomenon given the history of …. basically a propaganda ploy and you are not the only one to ask the question. Certainly something that has got a lot of traction all over the world.

    KIM HILL: Do you think that China will ultimately-y-y-y-y give Russia the support it needs to make a breakthrough in this war?

    SERHII PLOKHY: Ahhhh, China is a big factor in this war and so far it is on the sidelines.

    The interview rambled on, with Hill occasionally feeding one of her anodyne questions and Plokhy answering it pompously. The funniest statement came from Plokhy, towards the end of the interview:

    SERHII PLOKHY: This is the largest war, the most destructive war in the war after Second World War.

    After that horrifically false statement, I could not transcribe any more.

    Plokhy has an admirer in Luke Harding…
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/apr/30/the-russo-ukrainian-war-by-serhii-plokhy-review

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