I was already asked to start a new post as the first one was buried in the NIA post,
I also am a long-time member #327, but this last summer, year of the 67 (50 years) I could not miss, 1400ish miles one way, thank God for factory cruise and a/c ! and a trailer to draft from ......
First this post is not about the people that run the NIA, just too me anyways was the comradery or lack thereof, and could easily be changed, (NOW this is my opinion) Needless to say, the people that ran the program were excellent, went more than out of their way to accommodate you if you filled your paperwork out wrong, extremely nice and kind people, I honestly believe Don and Ann were overwhelmed with the hospitality and welcoming to the NIA, because it was evident! With that being said ….
The Judging part I did not get at all, my vision was completely different and thought it was very strange, cars to be Judged were Judged by a small group, you did not know (at least I didn’t) but maybe one, hidden in a building where nobody could see, or no interaction between owners and Judges after the cars had been Judged and then to get a score sheets 6 months later is un-excusable, now this is “my opinion”, I could see a couple of weeks.
Since I have been in many clubs, have never seen it done this way, and maybe should keep my opinions to myself as I usually do, but I am used to knowing (if in a scoring category) leaving the show with a score, and at awards in front of my pears let the chips fall where they may, (I personally did not have my car Judged), first because it is not worthy, and second, the signup sheet was not clear to me, so again, this is “my opinion.”
I had this all written when the mailman came with the new NIA Newsletter a sign? which somewhat lays out the categories, and limiting the cars to 25?
Let the members judge with an “expert” of that year of car then they can learn as well as taking that “Change Tool” back home with you and feel as if you apart of the week, and not just a spectator.
After 2 weeks later getting your score sheet, you can see why you scored how you did and have time to correct it if you choose. Not sure what qualifies one to be a Judge of every year of car, but one small groups opinion is different than a team or 3-5 guys assigned to 2-5 cars, and at least one being knowledgeable in that year, then before you turn your score cards in, talk to the others that that scored the cars with each other so they can learn, 6 months later kind of fell short to me, not kind of, it did, this is not an attack on the NIA, Just me looking in from the outside, I hope that is clear.
Improvements that could be made again “in my opinion” is assigned parking, so your car needed to be in that spot every day, just driving around the motel looking at scattered cars was un-orthodox-ed to me, I understand that the trailered cars, they want to keep their cars under wraps, but could bring them to the show field to their assigned spot when they could, we all want to talk cars, and when you are looking at cars here and there till show and shine the day before most are leaving, it defeats the purpose, why not have one every day when they want to talk shop, the show field was your assigned place for the 5-6 days you were there, then a security team could keep an eye on the cars that were left outside at night, there are always night owls.
Instead of one day after the “hidden Judged” cars were done, having a show and shine, not sure what qualifies one to be a Judge of every year of car, but one small group’s opinion is different than a team of 3-5 guys assigned to 3-5 cars, and at least one being knowledgeable in that year, then before you turn your score cards in, talk to the others that that scored the cars with each other to, set it up as if you don’t want to Judge, it will cost you $25.00, that forces people to interact use that “Change Tool”, and when you fill out your application, check the years you would be comfortable judging, you wouldn’t have to have your car Judged, but why not, I learned so much the first time I seen that format I was hooked, give each Judge a card, and keep tabs on who Judged what, and maybe stamp a card , so the committee knows when ALL cars come in for a safety check and cowl tag checked, get their assigned spot, they can show they were a past Judge, does not mean they are experts, it means they want to learn more, so what if you do not leave with a rating or ‘trophy”, you found out how other people fixed things or what problems they ran into and how to improve.
Instead of one day after the “hidden Judged” car were done, (not sure what qualifies one to be a Judge of every year of car), but one small groups opinion is different than a team or 3-5 guys assigned to 3-5 cars, and at least one being knowledgeable in that year, then before you turn your score cards in, talk to the others that that scored the cars with each other for a consensus before turning in the score sheet, take out the lowest and maybe the highest ?, but the most seasoned guy or maybe leader of the 3-5 guys could ask how the scores were so different and are we really looking at perfection or cars built for transportation?
I live close to a lot of retired people here in Arizona, when I do go to car shows, sometimes one guy will come up and ask where my car was built, because they worked for GM when these cars were built, a month ago in Sun City West’s car show I spoke with a guy that started in Janesville at the beginning of the 1967 model year, asked him as much as I could, (his wife was in tow) and I even got his number, since 67 was his first year, he said it was probably his most memorable, and how constantly things were changed or improvise on the line so they did not have to stop the line, and how cars were test beat before getting on the transports or trains, a lot of engines got replaced in that test, so proof is in the pudding that anything could have been added that was not on the build sheet or missed, they were just building transportation, 2 shifts of it.
Again, this is “my opinion”, it is not meant in any way to point anyone out, or to offend, Vern’s article is good “The Change Tool” we are all uncomfortable with, I feel allot of people feel the way I do, but do not want to rock the boat, unfortunately we are in a very expensive hobby, I believe the younger generation likes our cars, but way out of their price range, when a “date coded” voltage regulator can cost $400-$500 dollars.
My first car my Dad bought me when I was 15 in 1975, 64 Impala SS, he paid $50.00 for it, gave me a year to fix it up.
You almost cannot fill your car up for that, so why do we wonder why the younger kids are into tuners? We have out priced them. I better stop before foot gets any further in my mouth, just ask to read with an open mind.
"Thanks Bill for shedding a little "Light' on the subject, I appreciate your honest comments/opinion" Thanks, all I really wanted to do was get an open dialog going, could not think of a better place to do it, Donny B hit the nail on the head, it is kind of like our jobs that thought has to go in, one day you see it as repairable, and the next time that situation comes up or the same project, you think, I need to replace that panel, what was I thinking to repair it? So I'm glad that it is out in the open and hope in any way it does not encourage someone not to come, I may be there, but without a car, just too far to drive for me and that's Ok, I would look for more population areas as well, the more the merrier.
Bill Hickle Surprise AZ 59Fins Not to be confused w/ Bill H. not that he has said anything wrong, just I am not him :D
As far as car judging in general, I find the older I get the less I need someone else's approval of my work. This is not meant to be mean spirit comment. doc
True, I build a car for ME. But I was curious how it scores against a 1000 point system, such as VCCA. I'm really doing it for my own benefit. Denis 1967 Impala SS Sport Coupe 396/TH400/12 bolt. Marina Blue (South Gate built) 1967 Impala SS Convertible 327/TH400/12 bolt. Ermine White (St. Louis built)
Denis, As a VCCA senior judge, and past Chief Judge, I will you that unless a car is built and restored to OE specs, it's not going to do well at the VCCA or AACA level. I only say this because you made the statement that you build your cars for YOU. If that means to your liking, not to OE specs, it's going to hammered at any event that judges on an OE resto platform because they judge to "as delivered" specs. I do not know you or your cars, so this is not a slight on either, just pointing out the reality of judging. Also, even if yoru car is all that and a bag of chips, you can have it judged at three different VCCA events and come away with three different sets of points and deductions. Not very judge and judging team is as educated as the next. I recall judging a CA vehicle at a national event that had plugs in the exhaust manifolds and was missing all the smog stuff. We took 25 points off because EVERYTHING was missing. Before finalizing the judging forms, I took a look at them because there was a pretty substantial difference in it's previous award status. When we got to the banquet that night and the guy didn't win his normal award, he lost his damn mind. Of course as the chief judge, he sought me out the next day and called me on the rug about the awful job our judges did. As a courtesy, I explained to him about the mandatory deduction for the missing items, he was incensed because "they never deducted those points before", to which I said, my crew got it right, others missed it. Moral of the story is, as well as people are educated, not everyone will get everything right, every time.
Hi Donny, Thanks for the response and insight. Actually, I should have said "...even though I built my car for ME, it was built close to OEM specs." And this is because I do like stock and original. There are a few items I went non-stock (2½" manifolds and exhaust, 1970 disc brakes, radial tires, etc) but I think I am going to install the correct OE parts. My car was judged at a VCCA event in Tustin, CA last October and scored 965 and earned a 1st Junior Award. I do want to start correcting the issues I got dinged on, but I'm doing it because I want to make those changes. BTW, My other 67 Impala SS is a South Gate-built car that was delivered in CA with the original 396 and AIR. It WILL be restored with the smog equipment in-tact. I'm hoping to meet you one day ;-)Denis 1967 Impala SS Sport Coupe 396/TH400/12 bolt. Marina Blue (South Gate built) 1967 Impala SS Convertible 327/TH400/12 bolt. Ermine White (St. Louis built)
Ron, You are probably right on that, I am sometimes gullible on someone being honest in their judgement to further gain on them selves. You would think or at least hope that you were, but I would think if you had a modified class, and you were in Original maybe, but most of know or era of cats, but would nice to have a more senior knowledgeable person in each group. Safety check was done on the " hidden" cars only, if all the cars were done, (a checklist) so any member could do it. And you would think that that as many ashtrays theses cars have you would check the darn lighter, but we usually don't, I know my GPS works, good enough for me, not sure I have ever checked the element lol , will have to just to see know.
Bill, Arden Marquardt here from Sioux City, IA. I have been an NIA member since 1993. I too have issues with the NIA, but I try in general not to upset people. But, I will respond a little bit.
Sounds like a main issue you have is with the judging part. I cannot say too much about the judging category as I have never had my car judged...it is not worthy. One of your issues is the score sheet delay...I would agree with that....should be more timely as you say and not 6 months. My theory is that the NIA is pretty small organization and there isn't enough people willing to be on the judging team. We are lucky to have one team of experts to do it. And, I think Ron Mroz and co do a good job of it. They know their stuff. (More NIA mem with judged cars to chime in here).
My issue is the Poeple's Choice Show. Convention 2017... I didn't sign up for it, but I assumed we could all park our cars together by model year regardless. Now I have to pay $25 just to park with the other '67s....all because people can't vote only for example yellow card cars on the windshield.
The cost of everything is an issue for me. Way too much. Maybe on show day we could just show up for the show and not pay anything. Just to pay money to park my car for a day in a parking lot seems wrong to me. The judging show..ok...you are paying people to judge your car.
The NIA convention overall are great with good people...just a couple issues on my part.
Thanks for the insight Arden. I have no interest in getting my car judged either, it's certainly NOT a show winner,I know that, but, if I can't park it with all the other 68's,I guess I'll have to? I WAS really looking forward to this year in Dayton but, the more I hear about this, the less excited I get. I only planned on coming Thursday...maybe Friday,depending on weather/rain. I don't own a trailer,so rain,will keep me away. Bogey Bob
We 'talked' earlier...I too have some questions about the People's Choice judging. I only sighed up for the "regular" judging ($45), which apparently does not 'qualify' me for the public part...wonder if I will be "put back in the corner" somewhere!? Paying out another $25 just doesn't do it with me...someone told me that you don't normally sign up for both judging events!?
Have gotten may responses from guys through email and or pm, since I posted this on CT as well.
AGAIN, this is my opinionn, clearly the NIA has been doing there thing for a long time, and it brings people back, so something is working. I am just want to make a few things clear, and hope other would respond an opinion, and that opinion could be as simple as it does not belong on this forum, I just know that alot of people here are apart of, or are going to Dayton. Couple things it boils down to, have a show field from day one where cars are to be parked during the week ( TO generate conversation ) most people will sit with there cars, at least some of the time, but they are all there in in categories off at least years. not randomly parked in different areas of hosting hotel that the show is at. (everybody like to talk about the their car!) Trailered cars, bring them out when comfortable with it, cause others would like to see the higher standard maybe and learn form the car, what is maybe correct, or mods that have been done and the effects, example, white 65 4dr at Spearfish, seen the car alot, thought it was cool, seen it in parking lot, wanted to speak to the owner, just never caught up with them, show field may of brought that opportunity. I know Judging is done differently in many events, I get that, and again in MY opinion every car should go through through safety check, so the cowl tag and VIN can be ID'd and put in the proper class, (Modified, original etc.) maybe this is a volunteer issue, I am not sure, but if you bring a car, you should have to be a Judge, if you opt out it cost you $25.00 or something to that effect, and have it on the show field 2 - 3 days prior to "Judgement Day" so everyone has had a chance to look the cars over, the committee knows their people, and could put someone in each category that knows them cars, someone like the tech person for each year, if they are not available, find out who knows that year fairly well, cause nobody knows all cars in each year (period) But what a way to get people together and talking and sharing on the spot. I've went through on prior post ways to break up Judges, some will be green and intimidated, that's how we learn when we a green and intimidated.
My points are to create conversation, not to say right and wrong, Don Keefe appears to knowledgeable but also, trying maybe to not fix what is not broken? Would be curious to know how the Pontiac part does their Judging, I know alot of us are of age where we don't want to do certain things such as Judge, I understand that, but people like me and younger WANT YOUR KNOWLEDGE on these cars!
Ron brought up the subject of "trailer Queens" in the "fuel Seder Thread" spoke with him on this, and Believe me, I have been there, but with out the truck and trailer, I get it, stick a bunch of time and money into doing a car, especially when you do it your self, instead of paying someone to do it. Many guys that have these cars also have cars they can drive, I do not have that luxury, (AND DON"T TAKE THAT AS A SLAM) I collected parts for my 59 for 7-8 tears before I did a full body off rotisserie, replaced alot of sheet metal, before complete floor pans were available, but welded everything and where needed finished both sides, scored a 996 first time out, but did don't want to drive it, so I get it. Just seems and Ron made valid points, there was a time when he drove the wheels off from it in his early years, when I drove my 67 from Phoenix to Spearfish SD, one member said you have balls driving that far in an old car, I guess I'm still young enough (57) that I feel I could fix most problems on the road, the way I see it, most people actually see you going down the road, and the thumbs up, or comments at a stop light are what it's about as well, even with all the flaws I see in my car, the general public doesn't, they just like to see the car!
This is all just my thought's, someone told me my "Filters" have come down : ) that the older I get the more I don't care about what I say, I do care,I am used to just keeping my options to myself, but felt passionate about this and hope to make it the NIA this summer, cause it has to be cooler than here at that time of year !!!
Thanks, I'll get off my soapbox now
Bill Hickle hicklebill@gmail.com 623-398-9538
Show Field some before Judging, sorry about the 59's that's what I was into before. OUR 59, wifey in in action!
Morning Bill, Haven't been to the last couple Impala Nationals but in the past my car did have to go through a safety check before being judged. While at Kalamazoo I still can remember Ron.M asking me to push in the cigarette lighter to see if it worked. I said "cigarette lighter?", I had never checked it after doing my frame off. Needless to say I lost points that year because it didn't work.. WORKS NOW though after putting in a new element. As far as judging this is my input, I dont think its fair to have some one judge my car that has a car in my same class. (this has happened and it happened at the Impala Nationals) Have a great day,Ron.H
Bill, as far as I know, the general rule is that you can only sign up for one event...Judged or People's Choice. I assume it is just a courtesy thing. Like what happened to me last year's NIA, I didn't sign up for PC and got put in the sideline area. I couldn't park with the rest of the '67s. It is what it is.
If you are interested in knowing how well restored your car is, then go in the Judged show. Hopefully, at some point in the convention, all of the '68 owner's and cars could get a group photo together.
on 3/12/2018, 7:42 pm
. WORKS NOW though after putting in a new element.