Do some EROEI due diligence, >>for the whole start-to-finish process<<, before getting too excited - Archived Message Posted by Rhisiart Gwilym on June 7, 2019, 4:37 pm, in reply to "Re: alliance between REG, ExxonMobil and Clariant that is revolutionising cellulosic biofuels." There's no question that fermented-biomass fuels of various kinds, for both liquid and gas needs, has a place in future consideration. But they have to be seen for what they are inevitably - by the Laws of Thermodynamics. Which is: niche products that - inherently, by those same Laws - are only ever going to be a small fraction of the amount that we squander currently; just as wind and solar 'renewables' will be too. Also - so far as I've seen - like wind and solar, biofuels in their modern hitech form are always dependent on fossil-hydrocarbon energy subsidies to happen at all. In their modern forms, none of them can bootstrap their full industrial system-requirements into existence, including the power to run the production/maintenance plant, nor provide enough spare energy to do essential on-site maintenance thereafter of both the generators themselves and of the essential industrial infrastructure that produces them; all of this even before some net energy is supplied to end-users. Only very low net energy providers, such as traditional muscle-and-natural-materials-built traditional wind and water mills and radiant-sun-heat harvesters, with very low embedded-energy requirements, can do that. As hinted above: do a full EROEI accounting, remembering to include literally every single item in the production chain that is essential to creating the end product, to get this sober reality clear. What's happening here with all biofuels, remember, is harvesting a small fraction of the energy contained in biomass, which in turn, even when growing under the drive of photosynthesis, was itself only fixing a small percentage of the total insolation energy that fell on its chlorophyllic parts. Photosynthesis, marvellous though it is, doesn't capture very much of that total sun power; usually reckoned at 1-2%! In sum, we're talking about very small percentages of what we use now, with no possibility of upping production beyond that naturally constrained limit. It's good stuff, but it's not going to keep us, as Jim Kunstler puts it, "driving our Hummers to Walmart forever." Not the remotest chance. Message Thread: alliance between REG, ExxonMobil and Clariant that is revolutionising cellulosic biofuels. - Gerard June 7, 2019, 1:53 pm Re: alliance between REG, ExxonMobil and Clariant that is revolutionising cellulosic biofuels. - Tomski June 7, 2019, 2:43 pm Do some EROEI due diligence, >>for the whole start-to-finish process<<, before getting too excited - - Rhisiart Gwilym June 7, 2019, 4:37 pm No quick answers methinks ... - Tomski June 8, 2019, 3:05 am After all the logicking, hunches is all we really have. It's always opaque, but especially in "these - Rhisiart Gwilym June 8, 2019, 6:43 am   Searching