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    Vacuous "liberals" chat about "ethical investing" (RNZ, 14 August. 2025) 📂 Archived Message

    Posted by Morrissey on August 22, 2025, 9:31 pm

    The Panel with Jennie Moreton and Sue Kedgley Part 1
    From The Panel, 6:10 pm on 14 August 2025
    Tonight, on The Panel, Wallace Chapman is joined by panellists Jennie Moreton and Sue Kedgley First up, new figures show the amount of Kiwisaver funds that bought into weapon companies increased by 40 percent this year: is your Kiwisaver invested in weapons involved in the war in Gaza? And they discuss microplastics, specifically the Global Plastic Treaty talks which are in danger of collapsing https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018999968/the-panel-with-jennie-moreton-and-sue-kedgley-part-1

    6:10 p.m.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Nice to be with you. Ethical investing has gained traction in the wake of Gaza; what if you want to make the decision to divest from military arms? Also on the show: huge concern that plastics are infiltrating every single part of life, including food. Global talks have stalled… and our Question of the Day is THIS: Were you one of those kids who were not allowed a Barbie? Apparently this is quite a thing… [He reads out two texts from listeners re Barbie dolls]... So keep that feedback coming. With me on the programme: Sue Kedgley, writer, women’s advocate, professional director and former Green MP. Sue, kia ora.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Wallace, great to be here, and I’m very sorry to hear that you barely slept last night because you were having so many nightmares about water-beds.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! And with us in Christchurch is Jennie Moreton, investment advisor and director at Craig’s INvestment Partners. Jennie, welcome.

    JENNIE MORETON: Thanks Wallace. Hi Sue, hi Wallace, it’s good to be here. I am Jennie Moreton and I had a water-bed.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: What is it about Panelists and water-beds?

    JENNIE MORETON: Ha ha ha!

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Is there, ha ha ha!, is there—-

    JENNIE MORETON: It was only for a reasonably short period of my adult life.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Very good, ha ha ha, L-L-LOVE it! All right, Sue Kedgley and Jennie Moreton with me. Loving your company already! Now, it’s more and more likely YOUR Kiwisaver nest egg will be invested in weapons used in the war in Gaza. According to the ethical investing charity Mindful Money, the amount of Kiwisaver funds that bought into weapons companies increased by 40 per cent this year. It’s calculated that Kiwisaver investments in weapons companies are now worth nearly four hundred million BUCKS. It’s also said that New Zealand investment in the production of weapons used in Gaza comes to a total of 72 million dollars. John Berry is the co-founder of Pathfinder, an ethical Kiwisaver provider. Welcome, John.

    JOHN BERRY: Kia ora Wallace, thank you for having me on the show and, um, I’ve gotta put my hand up and say I did have a waterbed in my early twenties as well!

    JENNIE MORETON: Ha ha ha!

    SUE KEDGLEY: Did anybody NOT?

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Amazing! Amazing! I just—okay, thank you John! Coming to the topic, look at this top line: a 40 per cent increase in investment in weapons companies. Is that surprising to you?

    JOHN BERRY: Yeah, the increase over the last year IS significant, over 40 per cent, and I think part of it will be due to the fact that the share prices of weapons companies have gone UP, so they’ve increased in value. And part of it as well I think will be a number of managers around the world allocating more to weapons manufacturers and defense companies. Um, does it surprise me? Does it disappoint me? Yes it disappoints me immensely. Um, but this is the world we are living in at the moment.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Before we get to the Panel, because they’ll have views on thi-i-i-is, is it, i-i-is there, a-a-a-a-ah, w-w-with CRISES going on around the world and not just in Ga-a-a-a-aza, aaah, a lot of MILITARYactions happening, Gaza, uh, er, y’know, is, is, uh, it’s really GARNERED ATTENTION, is that focusing people’s minds on, hey! where is my money being invested?

    JOHN BERRY: Yeah I think people, every year people are caring more and more about aligning their investments with their values. And, and weapons has really come into the limelight in the last few years with, um, with global, global conflicts and, y’know it IS LEGAL to invest in conventional weapons but, um, y’know, at Pathfinder, I don’t want to be part of the economy of conflict. I wanna sleep at night knowing I’m not, um, funding weapons companies. And, and there are many, many New Zealanders who feel that way, uh, Mindful Money research would show how 80 per cent of New Zealanders don’t want to invest in weapons in their Kiwisaver.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Well it just so happens that we’ve got an investment advisor on this very show tonight! Aaaaahhhm, great to have you here, Jennie, for this. What’s your hot take on this?

    JENNIE MORETON: Oh look I couldn’t agree more with John, that people are more concerned than ever about—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Do YOU think so too?

    JENNIE MORETON: Yeah, about investing ETHICALLY. Now, the question becomes what does that MEAN for you?

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Mmmmmmm.

    JENNIE MORETON: And, you know, I ask EVERY client that I meet with, IS there something you don’t want to INVEST in, and is that gambling, tobacco, alcohol, munitions, animal testing et cetera. Munitions is a really interesting one, because most of us would say, I don’t want to invest in guns, bombs, whatever, but then you say, does the Ukraine have the right to defend themselves against the incursion from RUSSIA? And they would all go yes, definitely, it should be allowed to DEFEND itself! So it IS a really tough ethical stance to HAVE, but I do agree that people should have the opportunity to take the ethical stance in their investing and more and more people WANT their investments to MATCH THEIR VALUES.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: They WANT their investments to match their values. Stay there, John. Sue Kedgley.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Yeah well I think this is a very TIMELY ISSUE to be discussing because so many people are feeling, you know, utterly powerless in the face of the Gaza genocide, and this is something that—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: THAT—-

    SUE KEDGLEY: —is very practical—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: THAT hasn’t been DEFINED by the ICC as genocide.

    SUE KEDGLEY: I would hasten to add, heh, Wallace—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: I’m just saying.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Anyway. But in the face of what is going on in Gaza people feel, you know, incredibly powerless and this is something very, very practical that people can DO, and one of the things that I was fascinated to read is that there are 36 weapons-free funds at thirteen different providers. So, in other words, there ARE very clear options that people can switch to if they want to make sure that they are not investing in weapons. And I also think if the largest pension fund in the world, the Norwegian pension fund, if they can say well, we’re not going to do business with the largest companies that are providing equipment ot the Israeli military, then some of our Kiwisaver companies could surely do the same.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: I wanted to raise that, John, actually, on the back of Sue Kedgley because I noticed the news out yesterday that in fact, uh, Sue was right, you’ve got, ha ha, the world’s LARGEST fund, they’ve divested its stake, in eleven Israeli companies. Now this is Norway’s TWO TRILLION sovereign wealth fund. It’s enormous. Is this where the rubber meets the road in this issue?

    JOHN BERRY: Yeah look you’re right, the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, two trillion dollars, is absolutely massive. I suppose we’re seeing two things happening in the world. We’re seeing, um, Norwegian Funds has divested, they’ve sold eleven, they still hold fifty Israeli companies, they’re still under review. And so there is that weight of money that is moving away from weapons, but the flip side is, I’ve seen three large European managers who this year have very quietly just taken out the weapons exclusions from their policies to open up investing into weapons.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Mmmmmmmm.

    JOHN BERRY: And so we’re seeing this, um, you know, divergent approaches, and you know, just picking up on what, um, what Jennie had said earlier as well, and I agree that democracy has to be able to defend itself, you know, but the reality of investing is that when you invest in a weapons manufacturer you don’t get to say I only want those weapons used for defence. You don’t get to choose whether they’re used for defence or offence, you don’t get to choose where in the world they’re sold to, how they’re used, um, you know, what conflict they’re involved in, so you don’t actually get that choice, you don’t get the choice to say I only want to invest in defence, so for ME—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Right.

    JOHN BERRY: —the choice at Pathfinder is just, don’t invest in them.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: What if I’m listening and actually I’m really keen on investing, and I want to invest away from HOUSES, okay, so I’m a Kiwi listening to this on The Panel tonight, going home, uh, and I WANT what’s gonna GET ME THE BASE RETURNS. I don’t really CARE about who I’m investing in, I just want best bang for buck. Isn’t that reasonable?

    JOHN BERRY: Yeah that’s like, from an investor perspective, people are entitled to either invest with their values or just say, I just want to invest in anything that’s LEGAL, but from an ethical investor’s perspective, like ethical investing is not philanthropy. We’re still there to generate—

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Right.

    JOHN BERRY: —the best return we CAN for investors, and I’d say the flip side as well, like, various companies, YES, they have had a really good rally, um, particularly this year, but you look at other parts of ethical investing, we don’t invest in fossil fuel production and extraction, um, the price of oil is down 10 per cent this year, it’s lower than it was three years ago, so you know, there are, um, winners and losers when you are looking at returns around ethical investing, but it SHOULDN’T cost you in terms of returns.

    SUE KEDGLEY: John, I —

    JENNIE MORETON: John, I WILL ADD —

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Ah, Sue first, then Jennie.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Uh, sorry, I just say, John, there were, mention of thirteen different providers who are offering weapons-free funds: are they the ones in New Zealand? Is this easy for ordinary New Zealanders to access?

    JOHN BERRY: Yeah, the, look, the EASIEST wa-a-a-a-a-yy, there are two things that investors can do. One is contact your provider and say please give me a list of weapons companies and your policy around investing in weapons and secondly, go to the charity Mindful Money dot nz and there is full transparency there on weapons that Kiwisaver providers invest in,

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Oh, okay, so I can go to Mindful Money, google it in, get on the website and then I can input MY Kiwisaver provider, and your website can give me a rundown of what they invest in.

    JOHN BERRY: Correct. Like it’s full transparency for investors, from environmental degradation, animal testing, fossil fuels, weapons, and you can pick the issues that you care about and what values you want to engage with with your investing, and Mindful Money ngives you a tool to help you find, you know, you’re welcome to check out Pathfinder on site and compare us to other providers but it allows investors—there are 39 different Kiwisaver providers, there IS choice for investors Everyone has a different approach and different policy, and the Mindful Money tool allows investors to—

    JENNIE MORETON: Brilliant!

    JOHN BERRY: [inaudible]

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Jennie Moreton.

    JENNIE MORETON: Yes, and I will ADD that I was onsorted dot co dot nz, having a look at different Kiwisaver providers’ returns. The BEST balanced portfolio fund return—God I hope I got that right!---the best return from a balanced portfolio is actually an ethical fund.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Is it now? IS it?

    JENNIE MORETON: So, you know—-

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay.

    SUE KEDGLEY: Brilliant!

    JENNIE MORETON: Yeah. So, you know, as John SAYS, they could have different exclusions to ANOTHER fund. [brightening][/] Ethical funds have actually done well in the last few years, um, mainly because a lot of TECH stocks are considered ethical investing. And so, you know, much of the Magnificent Seven that gets bandied around so much will fall into MANY ethical funds.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay, so—

    JENNIE MORETON: Yeah.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Yeah you’ve answered a lot of people’s questions actually.

    ad nauseam….

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