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Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional.........

Posted by ceemac666 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=ceemac666' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 2:00 am

Wrapped himself up in a cardigan

http://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/29/the-perpetually-irrational-ukraine-debate/

Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional.........

Posted by Dovetail Joint <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Dovetail+Joint' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 11:29 am, in reply to "Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

A rather harsh judgement of Walt's position, I'd venture. The majority of what he says is accurate in relation to the US and the rest of the Great Western Empire. Walt shows the limits, which are shrinking, of what's possible to think and write, and still have any kind of access to the mainstream media.

Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional.........

Posted by ceemac666 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=ceemac666' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 5:21 pm, in reply to "Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

Harsh?Accurate?

"What Russia is doing to Ukraine is horrific, and it’s easy to understand why people are angry, eager to support Kyiv any way they can, happy to condemn Russia’s leaders for their crimes, and willing to inflict some sort of punishment on the perpetrators."

"Putin clearly bears enormous personal responsibility for this illegal and destructive war,"]

"Putin should be condemned for being paranoid, overconfident, and heartless, but Western policymakers should be faulted for being arrogant, naive, and cavalier."

"If Western support enables Ukraine to defeat an invading army and humiliate a dangerous dictator, then the failures of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and the Balkans can be swept into the memory hole....."

"Despite the welcome progress Ukraine has made in recent months, such an unsatisfying outcome may still be the most likely result."

Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional.........

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 5:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

He refers to Putin and the RF in the terms formerly reserved for superannuated US satraps due for removal.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional.........

Posted by Dovetail Joint <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Dovetail+Joint' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 5:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

The real substance of Walt's article is weighted massively towards what happening in the West, not Russia. He's attempting to address the inherent problems with the policy. If he decided to question the hysterical anti-Russian rhetoric at the same time, which is really a whole other question, he'd loose access to the mainstream media, which isn't his goal here. Whether or not he actually believes it, is irrelevant in this context. He obviously has bigger fish to fry.

Is that a lesser evil defence?....nm

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 9:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Must say I've heard better arguments about sticking to msm narrative

Posted by Tomski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 11:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

Blunting the edge of the intelligence-driven msm backstory seems pointless. The Average Joe is unlikely to notice. Imo it's the logic of the argument that will bring the bacon home. Followed up with well argued logic for coup de grace. One doesn't need the msm anymore -they are finished.

Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by Jim_Carlucci <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Jim_Carlucci' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 6:05 pm, in reply to "Even Steven Walt shows himself to be delusional........."

Not so much "delusional" - but tiresomely mealy-mouthed and still trying far too hard to please those who refuse to discuss indisputable historical facts(not opiniins) and who label anyone who does so as a Putin puppet, a gullible regurgitator of Kremlin "talking points".

The Webster's definition of "mealy-mouthed" below sums up zillions of half-baked hacks like Walt who also - true-to-type - also appears to believe that the primary reason European leaders have kow-towed to and not raged against Russia for the last 70 years like warmongering Commie-hating American psychopaths is because Europe needs Russian oil and gas.

Webster def: mealy-mouthed:

"Avoiding the use of direct and plain language, as from timidity, excessive delicacy, or hypocrisy; inclined to mince words; insincere, devious, or compromising.

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by Dovetail Joint <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Dovetail+Joint' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 6:44 pm, in reply to "Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

I agree mostly, only I don't see why you all focus on what's wrong with what he writes, rather than what's right; his critique of the West's position? It's so negative and, to be honest tiresome. In order to gain access to the US mainstream he, clearly, employs the standard criticisms of Putin/Russia. That's expected and really doesn't mean very much. He doesn't want to alienate his readers, whilst at the same time pointing out the dangerous consequences of starting a war against Russia.

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by ceemac666 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=ceemac666' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 7:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

What,pray, is the point of "gaining access"by repeating and reinforcing the same tropes that one
claims to be criticizing?This is the same "justification"as every other stenographer posing as a journalist.

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by Dovetail Joint <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Dovetail+Joint' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 8:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

The point og gaining access is... obvious, surely? Because otherwise the 'debate' in the mainstream would be totally dominated by pro-war, pro-Ukrainian views, and that's dangerous. As conditions in Ukraine worsen in the coming months and the war turns decisively in Russia's favour it's going to be increasingly difficult to maintain the current narrative when faced with reality on the battlefield.

Dissent and oppositon has to begin somewhere and Walt, in his way is part of that process. Otherwise one might as well just give up even atteempting to challenge and alter the dangerous road we're on. And, patently, he isn't simply repeating and reinforcing the same old tropes; he's challenging a whole string of them, which is the main point of his article.

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by Dovetail Joint <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Dovetail+Joint' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

I think the point is rather simply. At times like these when war hysteria is the norm and escalation is a real possibility, any voices of reason and caution allowed space inside the mainstream are valuable and necessary.

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by ceemac666 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=ceemac666' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 10:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

Allowed.
As in "modified limited hangout".

Thanks c. Succinctly put. Ta

Posted by Tomski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2022, 11:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

Limited hangout

Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn.

Posted by Ken Waldron <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ken+Waldron' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 4, 2022, 2:41 am, in reply to "Re: Walt: Iraq, Aghanistan, Libya etc were Western "FAILURES" - Putin's war is "criminal". Yawn."

The "Fabian" approach you espouse has been somewhat discredited recently in the UK: re the Labour party...

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