💀COP28 - Run by Fascists. Legitimised by Liberals.
Let me make a well considered statement:
The COP process is dedicated to facilitating the greatest holocaust in human history.
Any organisation that participates in this process in 2023 is guilty of complicity in that holocaust - the world on fire for ever more.
Look where 27 COPS have got us.
We're at record high emissions and the current COP president says there's 'no science' behind phasing-out fossil fuels. It's a joke. A mockery of humanity.
If it's a mockery then why continue to go to COP? You just make a mockery of yourself.
Would you have gone to a peace conference with Hitler in 1939?
It's a 2020s version Soviet show trials - anyone who engages with it is a "useful idiot" for the greatest genocide project in world history. Even Greenpeace has voiced qualified support for COP as "not only a historical opportunity but also a stage to demonstrate the UAE's diplomatic power”
Meanwhile so called "campaigners" are criticising Rishi Sunak, the King and David Cameron for taking separate private jets to get there. If they took the train to the mass murder conference would that be okay?
Winning "winnable" demands at this stage is just another variation of the global suicide project. Only with a strategy of resistance to change everything will we have any chance to save anything.
IT'S TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT.
How can anyone with a semblance of realism or morality financially support an organisation that gives credibility to a conference that facilitates the greatest holocaust in world history - or what the fuck do they think 1 billion refugees means?
It's time to drop the corporate frame "climate", the murder weapon, and instead focus on the murderer - the elites. Either we collapse into fascism and extinction or we create a progressive revolution.
To be clear - three things are needed if we are to avoid collapse into effective extinction.
* The total decarbonisation of societies * Massive investment and roll out of earth repairing/geo-engineering technologies * A wholesale political revolution which puts the common interest before corporate interest
Seems like desperation has made him consider insane schemes like brightening arctic clouds as worth pursuing:
'XR was always about responding to the whole ecological emergency, not just the climate. We need to bring this back to the fore, as much for the climate as for nature. We need to prioritise preserving and growing forest cover, learning how to restore the oceans' role in atmospheric modulation, experimenting with marine cloud brightening in the Arctic and exploring every option for climate restoration and cooling, and even consider reversing recent shipping fuel regulations if they are causing an aerosol ‘termination shock’. And at the same time we must reject the lie that high consumption societies do not need to power down equitably, with the rich going first. We waste vast amounts of energy, which is unspeakable in these circumstances. The rallying cry from here on is that we Must Stop Oil, end the fossil fuel era, and we must also urgently start the repair of Planet Earth, our only home.' - https://rogerhallam.com/telling-the-truth/
Yeah Roger, they're only going to hear the first part of this statement. "Even noted environmental extremist Roger Hallam is in favour of [insert geoengineering scheme]". Don't give them an inch - of course they will use crackpot ideas like this to maintain business-as-usual for as long as possible, and bring their own brutal unintended consequences.Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/
It's the new normal, or should that be... 'normal?'
I've been listening to the BBC and glancing at the UK media, the Guardian.
One's reaction to the latest Cop, is that, to use a Trump term... a hoax.
It was supposed to be the 'Cop of Hope', help!
They keep interviewing people who imagine that there's a new 'scientific' solution waiting for us just around the corner, almost like some wizard is secretly conjuring magic for us. Their faith in 'science' is... almost touching.
Many of the Greens they've talked to are deluded. They seem to believe that there exists, here and now, real alternatives, no, slot in replacements for fossil fuels that we're just to slow or lazy to introduce instead.
It's magical thinking, if one can call it... thinking. It's like they think that all we have to do is faze out coal, oil and gas really, really, quickly and then new technologies and alternative energy sources will... appear to fill the gap in our energy consumption. That's the 'hoax' part.
We have to reduce our total energy consumption and reduce our 'standard of living' or consumption and ration and husband all our resources. The age of capitalist mass consumerism is over, or should be, but that isn't being addressed a Cop, which should really be labeled a Cop Out.
Saw an interesting practical " geoengineering" a while back featuring a study done on the permafrost by Sergey Zimov who wants to bring back large herbivores to permafrost regions...
Grazing Herds Could Help Protect Permafrost in the Arctic New Study in Siberia shows how herbivores can slow down thawing.
May 16, 2020
Herds of reindeer, horses, and bison could soon be thundering across the frozen ground in places as far north as Siberia. That’s because reintroducing these grazing herbivores can slow down the rate of permafrost thawing and slow down global warming.
A new study conducted by Professor Christian Beer the University of Hamburg consisted of a computerized simulation that replicated the conditions of the Arctic permafrost soil. This study, according to CBS News, found that if there are enough animals resettled into the arctic, 80 percent of the permafrost soil could be preserved until at least 2100.
This study was inspired by an experiment in the Siberian town of Chersky that was featured on CBS News’ 60 Minutes. The episode introduced viewers to a controversial scientist Sergey Zimov who predicted 20-years-ago that because of the warming climate of the Arctic region, the melting permafrost would release greenhouse gasses that have been trapped in the soil for thousands of years. This would increase the amount of warming and start an endless loop.
The Pleistocene Park Experiment – named for the last ice age – was a way to see if grazing animals thundering across the land would disperse the snow and help chill the soil. While the experiment has proven successful, 60 Minutes said Zimov was scoffed at 20-years-ago and was not able to get his scientific papers published.
Now, scientists are taking his warning seriously. A 2019 study that was conducted by scientists at Woods Hole Research Center in Massachusetts and published in Nature Climate Change showed that 1.7 billion tons of carbon was released from melting permafrost between 2003 and 2017.
This changed the Arctic from being a net sink that absorbed carbon into a net source of emissions that are contributing to climate change. If unchecked, there would be a 7-degree increase in permafrost temperature that would cause half of it to melt by 2100.
Max Holmes, a leading climate scientist and deputy director of the Wood Hole Research Center told 60 Minutes that Zimov's key discovery was that Siberian permafrost held far more carbon than anyone knew. “The estimates of how much carbon is locked up in permafrost keep going up.”
Now, Beer’s study shows that most of the permafrost can be preserved if the tundra is repopulated with grazing animals. "This type of natural manipulation in ecosystems that are especially relevant for the climate system has barely been researched to date, but holds tremendous potential," Beer told CBS News.
But how realistic is it to repopulate the number of animals necessary to make a difference? Beer admits that he is not sure but that the research is promising. “Today we have an average of five reindeers per square kilometer across the Arctic. With 15 [reindeer] per square kilometer we could already save 70 percent of the permafrost according to our calculations.
"If theoretically we were able to maintain a high animal density like in Zimov's Pleistocene Park, would that be good enough to save permafrost under the strongest warming scenario? Yes, it could work for 80 percent of the region" said Beer.
Beer intends to continue his research and to collaborate with biologists to see how animals can be resettled in large enough numbers across the arctic to make a real difference. Letting nature heal nature can be a very important part of saving our planet.?
'With 15 [reindeer] per square kilometer we could already save 70 percent of the permafrost according to our calculations.'
I'm going to venture a prediction that his calculations won't match up to reality because there will be a load of factors that he won't have taken into account. It's so neat and simple feeding numbers into computer models...
I tracked down the paper. Seems the big idea is that extra mammals will trample down the snow and lessen its insulative properties, thus allowing the ground underneath to get colder over the winter months:
'One particular possible mitigation strategy is the additional introduction and management of herbivores, such as reindeer, horses, bison, etc. in contemporary northern high-latitude ecosystems. In the late Pleistocene the mammoth steppe ecosystem consisted of numerous herbivores of about 10 ton per km2 biomass15 and occupied most of Northern Eurasia. Since the beginning of the Holocene, big mammals disappeared and the mammoth steppe vanished. Today, only reindeer is found16 with a density below 10 individuals per km2 in most of the Arctic17. This can, however, be changed since most populations of large herbivores like reindeer and muskoxen are directly managed by humans, either by hunting or management18. The herbivore community can also be manipulated even more by reintroducing lost components of the Arctic herbivore assembly. In a huge and long-term experiment called Pleistocene Park, a 2000 hectare area in the Kolyma river lowland, Russian Far East has been fenced in 199619. Then, different herbivores have been introduced into this park in order to study their effect on plant biodiversity, vegetation productivity, and soil temperature regime. Winter grazing and movements by the animals compact snow, thereby substantially decreasing the thermal insulation efficiency of snow. This allows much colder freezing of soil in winter, hence colder overall mean annual soil temperature. The hypothesis is that this cooling effect may prevent permafrost from thawing or at least postpone the degradation15. However, to test this hypothesis, a quantitative assessment is needed on the long-term effect of increasing snow compaction until 2100 under climate change. Would a high potential increase in the population density of large herbivores preserve permafrost temperature and gelisol extent until the end of the century? Or, would the increasing air temperature forcing anyhow dominate over the reduced soil insulation effect, and thus lead to a positive permafrost carbon-climate feedback mechanism?' - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-60938-y
Later they at least note some of the possible counter-effects:
'Introducing a large amount of big mammals into tundra and forest tundra ecosystems will also have other consequences for ecosystem functions, such as enhancing of primary productivity or nutrient cycling while at the same time reducing shrub and tree cover15. The resulting enhancement of both carbon dioxide uptake and surface albedo led to an additional negative feedback to global warming. However, higher grazing activities may also disturb near-surface vegetation such as lichens andsuch first model experiments do not take into consideration all interactions between ecological and physical processes. For instance, changing veget bryophytes, thereby reducing their insulation efficiency in summer and leading to soil warming. Since our land surface model version includes a process-based representation of lichens and bryophytes21, we could explicitly account for such effects on soil temperature by doubling the turnover rate constant of mosses. The sensitivity study results suggest an overall negligible effect of moss turnover rate on permafrost temperature and illustrate the importance of snow properties (Table 2). However, such first model experiments do not take into consideration all interactions between ecological and physical processes. For instance, changing vegetation type and cover by herbivores will impact surface albedo and evapotranspiration. Therefore, our results demonstrate the need for further research on the effects of big herbivores on land-atmosphere interactions and on integrating fauna dynamics into complex Earth System Models.'
'such first model experiments do not take into consideration all interactions between ecological and physical processes' - you don't say! Also not covered is what all these extra animals are going to be eating - presumably there's a reason reindeer herds are so low nowadays, a question generally having to do with the amount of forage available to them, especially during winter. They say the numbers can be 'managed by humans' - well, that's that problem sorted then, where there's a will there's a way! They'll be dropping hay bales off by helicopter before you know it, with funding from BP, joyously announced in full-page advertorials in the graun... Why not just send in a bunch of steamrollers?
A few days before the ongoing mass killing started I watched the film “Kingdom of God”. You could say it tells the story of the crusaders trying to hold onto Jerusalem but it's not really about that, in the same sense that “Gaza” (note the material frame) is not really about the Israelis and Palestinians. What is happening is the playing out of a meaning system that justifies killing which has been going on for 10,000 years. It assumes that humans can run the world rather than god. When people kill they are pathologically attached to the idea that they are real and the world is real, and that is all there is, and so they fight to the death over it. This attachment, this desperation, creates a never-ending cycle of rage and slaughter. The logic of hate is remorseless.
But this world, of land, treasure, and power, is not real - it is just one meaning system amongst many, as confirmed by modern physics and traditional mysticism. Paradoxically the alternative ways of seeing thrust themselves into existence at times when the killing reaches one its of periodic spasms of hell.
“I can do this no longer”: the exhaustion of hate leads to the collapse not just of the ideology that drives hate (“this is my belief, I am right, and I can kill for it”) but of the whole materialistic worldview of the self/world. Into being comes a third “entity”: god. Not the material god - another “thing” - of modern religious practice, but something very different: an awareness of an invisible presence that cannot be reduced to words and concepts.
The realisation is that truth, love, consciousness, and god are all part of a family of what might be called sensibilities. The utter failure of human moral reason - “they did this so I can do that” is replaced by an overriding single commandment: do not kill.
This is not about ethics and its feeble attempts to provide “reasons” - it comes to you. Your unbearable disgust and despair drive you to another place. They turn in on themselves and destroy themselves. And you come out the other side and find yourself another person in another world. It comes about by what used to be called the “grace of god”. There is no will, only the acceptance of a gift.
Love is not that sentimental brittle notion we have been told it is. Love is a militant adherence to a single principle - that love dies for itself. Love is beyond any mundane consideration of life and death. Love is the dogma that action has to be dedicated to the wellbeing of the other, “love your enemies” - regardless of the consequences.
Love in action is forgiveness. Forgiveness, properly understood, has nothing to do with the person who has done you wrong. It is not just the refusal to keep score, it is the rejection of the very idea of keeping score. It is not just the refusal to judge but the refusal to accept that it is possible to judge. It is a completely different aesthetic of what it means to live a good life. We are not here to act for ourselves, we are here to submit to god.
Love is the opposite of calculation. Love is the diametric opposite of material logic. Love relishes being smashed and extinguished. Love finds itself when alone and forgotten in a prison cell. Love is completely stupid - only a fool would follow it. But the hilarious thing is that it is only through its abject failure that it conquers the world - it is god’s joke. Because the enemies of love are fighting on foreign ground. They know neither what they do nor who they are.
They are children of god but they resist this truth to the death - unless they are saved and save the world in return.
This is the hidden and dark origin of the modern notion of nonviolence. Not the shallow contemporary obsession with “what works”. Love works because it does not work. It only works when it is done for itself. Only the very few receive the gift of this realisation but society is always redeemed by the actions of the very few.
In Gaza love in action would require a hundred people to sit by the road and stop eating and drinking. When asked what they are doing, they would say they are waiting to die, or the killing needs to stop. They would win because love is prepared to die for love. And many of the hundred might indeed die before love shames those doing the killing to stop. They are warriors of god.
Of course, people will be outraged. But why object to a few people dying for love when thousands die for hate?
To be clear then; love is only love when it is for itself; because love is god and god is for god. Infinite.
And those who die for love, with mayhem happening all around them, will have a smile on their face. They have entered the Kingdom as it was once called. Reunited with the One. At peace at last.
“The moment you accept it is not possible to fight for both sides at the same time, you've lost your soul.” - Zizek
Humanity Project
We have faith in people. We know that when ordinary people come together, we can make better decisions than politicians. So Humanity Project’s goal is to develop and provide the tools to help us all build our own future and new democracy.
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Er, they've been trying this for decades and it just gets them killed and nobody pays any attention or gives two sh1ts. Love doesn't mean presenting yourself for extermination, in effect collaborating with the oppressor. You fight to defend those you love. Nonviolent tactics may be appropriate in some instances, but violent ones absolutely are too, given the scale of what's happening over there. It's not for relatively comfortable, well-off outsiders to give condescending advice for how people should resist, when they know nothing about what they're facing. And then he quotes f*ing Zizek. I watched until he said 'I unconditionally condemn the Hamas attack on Israelis close to Gaza border without any ifs and buts, and I give Israel the right to defend itself and destroy the threat' about 30 seconds in then turned it off. Nothing more worth listening to from someone who takes that as their starting point.
I may not be a 'rock 'n' roll' philosopher, but even I can see the difference between 'defence' and 'attack'. Unless one means that the best means of defence, is attack! Only isn't that phrase one that Adolph Hitler used one occasion? I'm not sure he was much of a philosopher either.
There is a long, rich history of nonviolent Palestinian resistance dating back well before 1948
You wouldn't know it from the media coverage, but peaceful protests are nothing new for Palestinians. But if they are to succeed this time, the West needs to start paying attention.
MAY 18, 2011, 10:58 PM
By Yousef Munayyer
Last weekend, as tens of thousands of unarmed refugees marched toward Israel from all sides in a symbolic effort to reclaim their right of return, the world suddenly discovered the power of Palestinian nonviolence. Much like the "Freedom Flotilla," when nine activists were killed during an act of nonviolent international disobedience almost a year ago, the deaths of unarmed protesters at the hands of Israeli soldiers drew the world’s attention to Palestine and the refugee issue.
The world shouldn’t have been so surprised. The truth is that there is a long, rich history of nonviolent Palestinian resistance dating back well before 1948, when the state of Israel was established atop a depopulated Palestine. It has just never captured the world’s attention the way violent acts have.
Indeed, by the issuance of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, well before the establishment of the state of Israel, and during a period when the Jewish population of historic Palestine had yet to reach 10 percent, the native Arabs of Palestine could already see that their hopes for self-determination — in a homeland where they constituted a vast majority — were being jeopardized by their soon-to-be colonial master.
Resistance to Zionism during this period was characterized by various efforts led by elite members of Arab society who raised awareness about the dangers Zionism posed. Just before the war, Palestine saw a huge spike in new newspapers, and writers and editors such as Ruhi al-Khalidi, Najib Nassar, and Isa al-Isa regularly zeroed in on the threat of Zionism to Palestinian life. Diplomatic efforts to lobby the mandatory government ensued while concurrently peasants occasionally clashed with the European newcomers, but violence was largely localized and communal and took place amid larger, more peaceful, and political efforts to resist Zionist aims.
As Jewish immigration into Palestine increased and the implementation of the Balfour Declaration became more apparent, Palestinians who feared marginalization (or worse) under a Jewish state continued to resist. In the early 1930s, numerous protests and demonstrations against the Zionist agenda were held, and the British mandatory government was swift to crack down. The iconic image of Palestinian notable Musa Kazim al-Husseini being beaten down during a protest in 1933 by mounted British soldiers comes to mind.
It wasn’t until nonviolent protests were met with severe repression that Palestinian guerrilla movements began. After the 81-year-old Husseini died a few months after being beaten, a young imam living in Haifa named Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam (the namesake of Hamas’s military wing) organized the first militant operation against the British mandatory government. His death in battle with British soldiers sparked the Arab rebellion that began in 1936 and lasted until 1939.
The first phases of this revolt began with nonviolent resistance in the form of more strikes and protests, and the economy ground to a halt for six months when Palestinian leaders called for a work stoppage. This was put down harshly by the mandatory government, according to British historian Matthew Hughes, including the bombing of more than 200 buildings in Jaffa on June 16, 1936. The repression of both violent and nonviolent Palestinian dissent significantly destroyed the capacity of Palestinian society, paving the way for the depopulation of Palestine and the establishment of the state of Israel a decade later.
During the Nakba, which is what Palestinians call the period of depopulation from 1947 to 1949, nonviolent resistance became harder to see again, as armed conflict and violence dominated headlines. But one anecdote, which hits close to home, suggests that thinking about nonviolent resistance in the Palestinian context requires broadening our conventional understanding of the concept.
My hometown, Al-Lyd, (which is today called Lod), was besieged by Haganah troops in mid-July 1948. As part of Operation Dani, Al-Lyd and the neighboring town of Ramla were depopulated of tens of thousands of Palestinians. At the time, the city was filled with at least 50,000 people, more than twice its usual population, because it had swelled with refugees from nearby villages. After the siege, my grandparents were among the 1,000 original inhabitants who remained. They and many others refused to flee during the fighting and hid in the city’s churches and mosques. Unlike their neighbors, who were hiding in the Dahmash mosque where scores of refugees were massacred by Haganah troops, they managed to survive and walk out of their refuge into the destroyed ghost town they called home.
We tend to think of nonviolent resistance as an active rather than passive concept. In reality, even though the majority of the native inhabitants were depopulated during the Nakba, thousands of Palestinians practiced nonviolent resistance by refusing to leave their homes when threatened. Today, through its occupation, Israel continues to make life unbearable for Palestinians, but millions resist the pressure by not leaving. This is particularly notable in occupied Jerusalem, where Palestinians are being pushed out of the city. For those who have never lived in a system of violence like the Israeli occupation, it is hard to understand how simply not going anywhere constitutes resistance, but when the objective of your oppressor is to get you to leave your land, staying put is part of the daily struggle. In this sense, every Palestinian living under the Israeli occupation is a nonviolent resister.
The first and second intifadas were very different. In the first intifada of the late 1980s, Palestinians employed various nonviolent tactics, from mass demonstrations to strikes to protests. Even though the vast majority of the activism was nonviolent, it is the mostly symbolic stone-throwing that many remember. The Israeli response to the uprising was brutal. In the words of Yitzhak Rabin, then the Israeli defense minister, the policy was "might, power, and beatings" — what became known as the "break the bones" strategy, depicted in this gruesome video. Mass arrests also ensued, and according to the NGO B’Tselem more than a thousand Palestinians civilians were killed from 1987 to 1993. Thousands more were injured or crippled at the hands of Israeli troops. Yet, only 12 of the 70,000 Israeli soldiers regularly posted in occupied territories during the intifada died in the four-year uprising, clearly demonstrating the restraint with which Palestinian dissent was carried out.
The second intifada, which began in 2000 after a decade of negotiations yielded only more Israeli settlements, violence was used much more readily, including armed attacks. Yet while the acts of violence by both sides were more likely to feature in the headlines, many Palestinians were still employing nonviolent means of resistance; protests and marches, many at nearly daily funerals, were commonplace. It is during this period that the seeds of present-day nonviolent resistance in Palestine were planted.
Before we can think about whether nonviolent resistance is likely to factor heavily in the next chapter of the Palestinian struggle, we must first consider its aims. Nonviolent resistance, like armed resistance, is a tactic or tool primarily used to draw attention to a cause. The difference between the two is, of course, more important than the similarities. While armed resistance is likely to draw more attention to a cause by grabbing headlines, it’s also likely to bring with it plenty of negative attention. Nonviolent resistance is far less likely to make it into the international news, though when it does get coverage, it’s usually overwhelmingly positive. But a strategy of nonviolence only works if the world is paying attention and rewarding nonviolence with meaningful action.
The atmosphere in the Middle East and North Africa today is electric. Thanks to the scenes of peaceful protesters ousting dictators in Tunisia and Egypt, belief in nonviolent people power is at an all-time high. But for Palestinians to continue making the same decision, they have to believe they will succeed. If nonviolent Palestinian protesters are crushed by force and their repression is met with silence from the Western states that support Israel, many might choose an alternate path. That’s why the U.S. response to the Nakba Day protests — pointing the finger at Syria instead of criticizing Israel for shooting unarmed demonstrators — is so disappointing.
If ever there were a moment for Palestinians to overwhelmingly embrace nonviolence, that moment is now. The new media environment has created space for peaceful Palestinian voices that would never have been heard in the past. Many nonviolent protests continue to take place regularly: from the aid flotillas and convoys, along with repeated demonstrations against buffer zones in Gaza, to protests against the separation wall in Bilin, Nilin, Nabi Saleh, and al-Walaja; to demonstrations against home eviction and demolition in Jerusalem neighborhoods like Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan; to regular marches in refugee camps inside and outside of Palestine.
But Western governments need to end their silence. By condemning Palestinian violent resistance while failing to condemn Israel’s repression of nonviolent resistance, Israel’s allies — above all the United States — are sending the dangerous message to young Palestinians that no resistance to Israeli occupation is ever acceptable. The fact that the nonviolent protest of the Arab Spring has come to Palestine is not a threat. It’s a historic opportunity for the West to finally get it right.
By Yousef Munayyer, a Palestinian citizen of Israel and the head of the Palestine/Israel program at the Arab Center Washington DC.
Thanks, some useful reminders there and this point which is especially important:
'when the objective of your oppressor is to get you to leave your land, staying put is part of the daily struggle. In this sense, every Palestinian living under the Israeli occupation is a nonviolent resister'
Considering it was written in 2011, before the great march of return was so comprehensively ignored, the insistence on nonviolent resistence and kneejerk condemnation of militant armed resistance from western commentators is all the more galling. 'Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?' they ask. F* off, they're all Gandhi, you just never bothered to notice.
The ghastly Ukrainian nationalists dream about establishing a relationship to the West similar to Israel's; an armed and aggressive bastion in the heart of a competing civilization. Fortunately Russia has nipped that obnoxious bud bfore it fully flowers.
Posted by Dovetail Joint on December 10, 2023, 8:22 pm, in reply to "U forgot the EU flag"
War and propaganda seem to go together, like a horse and carriage. It's therefore, surprising that so many educated and intelligent people forget this everytime a new war starts.
What do we really know about the attacks of Oct. 7? Should we really, unquestionably accept the Israeli regime's version of the events of that terrible day, totally without question, without examination, without criticism? The Nethanyahu regime of ultra and religeous nationalists, who only weeks before were routinely characterized by vast swathes of Israeli opinion as a fascist regime determined to overturn Israeli democracy by crushing the independence of the judiciary?
Now, suddenly, the fascist regime, changes into the fountain of all truth? How is that possible? Surely, at the very least, one should exhibit a healthy degree of scepticism about their version of events, until at least there's been an independent international investigation?
Greg Greenwald has been very good on the issue you have raised for many years and 'bang on' after 7th October - he's been a regular guest on Due Dissidence, whom themselves have been appearing with Jimmy Dore of late.