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Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 5:59 am

...... will do anything at all in response to this study published in the Lancet in its "Planetary Health" journal. This study is titled A just world on a safe planet: a Lancet Planetary Health–Earth Commission report on Earth-system boundaries, translations, and transformations

You can read a Guardian summary here

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/sep/12/consumerism-and-the-climate-crisis-threaten-equitable-future-for-humanity-report-says

"Consumerism and the climate crisis threaten equitable future for humanity, report says

The Earth Commission says hope lies in sustainable lifestyles, a radical transformation of global politics and fair distribution of resources"

You can read the original article here

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(24)00042-1/fulltext

I haven't read the original article yet, but it explains what humanity has to do to avoid existential catastrphe by 2050, now just 25 year away, though baring a miracle, I won't be here to see this.

My invitation to all contributors to this TLBN is to provide an assessment of the likelihood that we will undertake to do what is needed or even that any government will make reference or take notice.

Perhaps a simple percentage estimate might suffice. My estimate of this, a 5% likelihood. So on twenty different earths as presently arranged, one might actually take the necessary action. What do others think?

Here's a few examples of our present response to our climate and ecological crisis

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by RaskolnikovX <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Raskolnikov' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 6:56 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

That shouldn't take long

It's not a subject I'm well-informed on and I'm generally cynical; not about the "existence" of climate change nor it's severity, but the chances of captured governments actually doing anything.

I think I'm below your 5%; I'd go with maybe 2%. I mean they have known the deal for a couple of decades now and are still fannying around with "non-binding targets" for reduction of emissions and then pretending they didn't blow right through that limit the next time they all take their private jets to whatever city they have their next PR shindig in before going back to not giving a fuck for the next two years.

There will probably be some sort of increased attention once it's too late (which it seems a lot of people think it already is, at least to avoid major consequences, if not extinction) and they will start throwing desperate measures at it, or rather us, or whoever is still left.

In short, we're boned.

...no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Alan Haynes <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Alan+Haynes' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 8:59 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

I went to the Royal Engineers museum at Brompton barracks some years ago, and was amazed to see the development in military technology from Bronze Age hillforts right up to the Falklands War and beyond. It was very sobering to see how people have developed the means to kill each other throughout history. I came out of the museum feeling quite despondent and realised that humanity had not learned anything, we are destined to make the same mistakes.
Human beings have evolved to develop a fight or flight reflex; this helps us to deal with immediate threats. However, climate change is not immediate, it has been slowly creeping up and is now virtually on top of us and we still have not been able to do anything about it; the COP's have been glorified talking shops that have achieved nothing.
There is a paucity of intellect, greed, moral bankruptcy, lack of foresight and self-interest that appear as qualifications for people to enter high office and form climate change policy… this is why I have very little hope for the future.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, here's Monbiot's most recent contribution .....

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 9:23 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/12/fossil-fuel-companies-environment-greenwashing

"Perceptionware" - Let’s talk about perceptionware. Perceptionware is technology whose main purpose is to create an impression of action. Whether it will ever work at scale is less important, in some cases entirely beside the point. If it reassures the public and persuades government not to regulate damaging industries, that’s mission accomplished.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, here's Monbiot's most recent contribution .....

Posted by ceemac666 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=ceemac666' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 10:10 am, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, here's Monbiot's most recent contribution ....."

Unfortunately Mr G remains blind to the wide world of "Perceptionware" peddled outside the confines of his self imposed Overton Window.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, here's Monbiot's most recent contribution .....

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 12:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, here's Monbiot's most recent contribution ....."

Referencing Mr Monbiot in this forum is to wave a red rag in front of a bull, maybe just occasionally cut the man some slack and thank him for his more thoughtful contributions, eh? Cheers.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 10:12 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 12:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

OK, Philip Larkin in sour mood.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Mark Doran <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Mark+Doran+66' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 10:40 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

No-one will do a thing. We are taking the fall.

By now, disaster for all life on earth is baked in. We'll add even more layers of catastrophe as the few remaining years rapidly pass.

There's only one planet we know that has life on it -- and capitalism fucked it in just 200 years.

M.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 12:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

I think it was the Industrial revolution, a British invention, though hyper-capitalism has certainly multiplied the problem, I don't recall the communist Soviet Union nor communist China even now taking much heed of planetary boundaries.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Mark Doran <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Mark+Doran+66' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 12:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

"... the communist Soviet Union..."

-- No-one who can type those four words in that order is worth bothering with.

M.

Re: Riposte to Mark Doran...

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 3:00 am, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

Mark Doran - Please explain, communist is what the USSR called themselves and pretty well the whole planet agreed, indeed some countries like China and Cuba who gave themselves the same label in their own efforts to emulate the USSR.

. If you're going to claim (and I don't know, because you don't tell me), well, the USSR wasn't actually communist, but some sort of deformed child of that ideology, that's mere pedantry and not a logical reply to my claim. Which was to state, unarguably, that you don't need to be capitalist to ruin the environment.

And you make it much worse by then implying that my particular opinion on this matter means that my opinion on anything else is not worth listening to. An unpleasant and unnecessary ad hominem. If you care to disagree, at least do me the credit of providing a worthwhile argument to bolster your disagreement, it's dismissive intellectual laziness otherwise.

JKM

Re: Riposte to Mark Doran...

Posted by Mark Doran <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Mark+Doran+66' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 6:31 am, in reply to "Re: Riposte to Mark Doran..."

Your ignorance is not my problem. Go away.

M.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 2:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

I don't recall the communist Soviet Union nor communist China even now taking much heed of planetary boundaries.

As Mark mentions, unusual phrasing, but more importantly what is there to recall unless you've been there and assessed it. Unlikely that you would have known from western sources.

I worked in post Soviet countries a decade after the demise of USSR. Every project still had to have an ecological assessment with detailed totting up of materials used and its impact on the environment (GOST and SNiP standards). Admittedly, most of the time engineers paid lip service to this requirement but at least they were aware of it. Prior to that I've *never* seen this done in the west.

I haven't time to tackle the current Chinese environmental policies here, but from the relatively recent reports I've seen they are vastly superior and more meaningful than any western virtue-signalling environmental policies where big shining words are used in the mission statements but nothing practical is being achieved.

Capitalism in its present neoliberal form will be the death of us.

Re China and Russia

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 3:31 am, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

The USSR's ecological record is pretty dire, Chernobyl, the disappearance of the Aral sea to a pesticide saturated salty basin, up to the fall of the Soviet Union its CO2 emissions (on a historical basis) were second only to the USA, radioactive contamination of the Ob rever and Arctic, including the Kyshtym disaster and the disposal of nuclear reactors and submarines in the Arctic Ocean, soil depletion from inappropriate agricultural practices, etc. Am I claiming the USSR was any worse than any other country, I don't know, but the claim that ecological damage is peculiar to capitalist systems bears no serious examination. Is it true there were movements and ideologies in communism that took account of such externalities, of course, but as in any other large industrial machine, they always took second place.

As regards China, is it true that this country is investing heavily in renewable energy and trying to clean up some of its worst pollution, but CO2 emissions in China have risen inexorably, and are now more than twice those of the USA, indeed, more than that of the USA, India, Russia, Japan and Iran combine, and almost twenty times the CO2 emissions of Germany. It's a country of environmental and industrial cognitive dissonance, claiming some environmental discernment, but desperately clinging onto a polluting energy source, Much as my diabetic patient goes for a run every day but still eats cream buns.

Re: Re China and Russia

Posted by Ken Waldron <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ken+Waldron' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 8:32 am, in reply to "Re China and Russia"

"and almost twenty times the CO2 emissions of Germany."

-It has seventeen times the population and manufactures & exports far more goods: western offshored manufacture also offshores emissions.

Re China and Russia

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 2:45 pm, in reply to "Re China and Russia"

First, I was relating to you my personal experience, as a professional, of the environmental practice in post Soviet space. Factual. Take it or leave it.

Second, this is not a bidding war re environmental disasters. One can easily pick up the list from wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_environmental_disasters

Pick and choose as you wish. I've seen a few with my own eyes, mainly in Africa and ME, but haven't the time to relate.

Something that jumped out for me .. nuke subs .. we had an conversation here on this forum with a Royal Navy engineer, forget his name now .. submarine nuke reactors are regularly scuttled in the Atlantic fwiw.

I still maintain that predatory neoliberal capitalism will be the death of us, driven by 0.001%. If you haven't noticed that, so be it.

Re: Re China and Russia

"Something that jumped out for me .. nuke subs .. we had an conversation here on this forum with a Royal Navy engineer, forget his name now .. submarine nuke reactors are regularly scuttled in the Atlantic fwiw."

Can't recall that one...it's factual though that there's presently at least seven of them rotting away at Rosyth: less than twenty miles from me.

Re: Re China and Russia

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 14, 2024, 1:36 am, in reply to "Re: Re China and Russia"

.. it's factual though that there's presently at least seven of them rotting away at Rosyth: less than twenty miles from me.

Sorry you, as my Filipino friends used to say. I was hoping it was somewhere like in a deepest rift of the ocean. Tbh I don't remember the details of the conversation, with our RN punter. Hence me zeroing in on Atlantic, as a detail I do remember : ). Rosyth and 20 miles from you .. yikes. Does anyone complain?

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Ken Waldron <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ken+Waldron' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 11:10 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

My view of politicians having met quite a number, is the they are overall, not very imaginative and not very smart.

Non the less they feel obliged to do what they are voted in to do and yet are so often actually incapable of doing: create policy and law.

Clearly I'm not the first to get both these points and indeed the "opportunity" presented by their regular alignment. This is where money steps in. Nearly all the law and policy we have thrust upon us: environmental, social, foreign, etc is brought to our often thick, avaricious or quite gullible representatives to subsequently be presented to us as official "policy" by a well remunerated army of paid lobbyists...over 90% of whom work for big business and effectively represent the concerns off the wealthy. Brussels has 29,000 alone: think of that. In the Parliament there are only 720 members so that's over forty individuals paid for full time by the rich to infuence every policy maker and indeed not only that but are given privileged Parliamentary access to do so.

In the US I reckon it It'll be substantially higher.

One of the major sources of wealth is of course the energy sector and another is the military Industrial complex.

So no surprise then that even in the overt face of the prospect of a stupid war we continue despite what sense dictates and even faced with the undeniable prospect of ecological ruin the think tank/ lobbyists find grand ruses to subvert or indeed benefit financially from any political intent (carbon credits come to mind...).

I have also lost count of the number of "Institutes" set up by now deceased red-in-tooth-and-claw capitalist billionaires to lobby forever for neocon policies after their own demise.

Thus alas it is not only the wealthy but the dead wealthy (literaly) who write policy for the living. Needless to say, recognising new developments such as pending ecological disaster is not possible for such automated "legacy" systems.

The issue is thus systemic. The entire political body geared to take easy input from military industrial & carbon based wealth sources cannot produce any other result but to continue over the cliff.
- It can only be remedied by removing the ultra- corrupt anti-democratic lobby system... but even if that were possible- and I think not, where then would our thick representatives get "policy"? What replaces the forty plus "free" lobbyists/ think-tanker assigned every representative?

Anywise, that in my view is the "Achilles heel". In the face of impending doom it would seem such a little matter to reorientate government towards the well being of the many rather than the wealth of a few, but alas, It's the never-ending story of politics...and because of the lobby itself the people rarely win.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Simon C <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Simon+C' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 4:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

If Tim Watkins is correct, the decision will be made for us - the depletion of fossil fuels (predominantly oil) is already having a huge effect on human society which will only multiply in the coming years. In short, business as usual will become anything but.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by RaskolnikovX <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Raskolnikov' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 4:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

Definitely agreed; the effects will be enormous but the question was will "they" do anything to stop us getting there/getting there so quickly?

When the shit really hits the fan, I think there's going to be a retreat for the power-elite into whatever short-term barbicans they can construct and the masses will just be left in a dystopian nightmare.

I always wonder whether there isn't at least some aspect of the "turn the boats" back narrative that isn't aimed at trying to normalise this for when climate refugees really start moving.

...no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 8:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the-

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet.....

Posted by RaskolnikovX <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Raskolnikov' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 8:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Ahhh Python. When they were good they were superb.

...no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

Unoriginal, I know, but any revolution needs a media revolution at its core in this engineered

Posted by marknadim <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=marknadim' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 5:31 pm, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

fish-tank 'community'.

A spark, or rather a global series of sparks, igniting a realisation that the whole edifice (purporting to be a range of views)
needs replacing with a new people-owned and serving model.

A new people and planet serving face-to-face grassroots-up round-table series of assemblies is the model I guess.

Without that oblivion looms.

Re: Unoriginal, I know, but any revolution needs a media revolution at its core in this engineered

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 13, 2024, 2:42 pm, in reply to "Unoriginal, I know, but any revolution needs a media revolution at its core in this engineered"

If Tim Watkins is right, we won't have to worry about t'internet for much longer.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Without huge revolutionary upheaval? 0% With huge revolutionary upheaval? Don't know... (nm)

Posted by Ian M <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ian+M' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 8:46 pm, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously
http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/

...but not much better (nm)

Posted by Ian M <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ian+M' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 12, 2024, 9:34 pm, in reply to "Without huge revolutionary upheaval? 0% With huge revolutionary upheaval? Don't know... (nm)"

Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously
http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/

A phrase sticks with me from learning to trade the financial markets …

Posted by Shyaku <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Shyaku' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 14, 2024, 9:18 am, in reply to "Let's have survey from every contributor, their assessment that the world, humanity, the planet....."

“Most people are right, but at the wrong time”.

- Shyaku.

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