1. It has been proven by demographers many times that to make a significant difference in the proportion of the elderly in any mature population, the levels of immigration needed are socially unacceptable. For the UK it would be at least 2 million per annum. You can see this clearly in the figures provided in the article that without immigration the proportion of elderly (as defined by age 65 or over) will rise to 36% but with immigration 32%, that's a mere 4% , hardly significant yet called a crisis, and easily manipulated by changes to reticent age, work training for older people etc. And to make that 4% change, for the whole of Europe, 20 million migrants or more per year? And what about the cultural assimilation issues with so many immigrants? Are they not real?
2. and of course, once embarked on this course, as immigrants themselves get older, this immigration regime must be maintained for ever.
3) all to prevent a decline population because apparently there's nothing else you can do or think of to ameliorate it, always to be regarded as inimical to growth, wealth creation and social cohesion. This is absurd.
4) why is still considered that 65 is the magic figure of old age, I aam a baby boomer, and 65 is no longer old age for most. We could redefine old age by starting retirement at 68 or even 70, we'd still be living longer and in better health in retirement than our parents and grandparents. and bingo, problem solved. Vs 2 million more immigrants in perpetuity. I continued working as a GP until the age of 72 years, almost 50 years as a practicing physician.
4) and are there not advantages in a declining population. An ecological and climate crisis threatens food supplies, water supplies, severe weather extremes. Housing is in short supply. The whole of Europe but particularly the UK is considerably overpopulated ,surely less pressure on resources, more room for nature, less crowds, are positives earnestly to be desired.
5) This capitalist agenda of growth, always growth, is basically insane. Concerns about a gradually declining populations are equally insane. The only natural phenomenon that mimics are present human existence and its growing population and growing demands is the cancer cell - everything in nature has a season, and a maturation. We desperately need a human maturation and a more accommodating way with nature, with Gaia and the sooner the better.
6) Where's the population policy, any consideration of what constitutes a serviceable sustainable population for the country and its own resources? How can you have an immigration policy without a population policy?
To be fair to the article, once it passes its more breathless prose....
... and I get to read it properly, some of the matters I have raised are discussed by Prof Alan Manning of the LSE.
The article goes on: At the same time, experts stress that immigration is not a silver bullet for Europe’s demographic challenges, instead suggesting it is one of many solutions, or at least a way to ease the transition to an older society.
“Increasing immigration levels will not solve these demographic problems on their own – the levels required to do so would be very large, and there are only so many migrants who are willing to move,” said Springford.
“But they would help, as would raising employment rates of working-age people, pushing back the age of retirement, reforming pensions and shifting the burden of taxation from labour income to wealth, especially property.”
The professor makes some good points, and includes taxation regime on wealth and property. But the politicians don't like such a nuanced approach do they?
Re: To be fair to the article, once it passes its more breathless prose....
Another issue hardly ever mentioned in the immigration/population debate is that those countries in the Global South used as a source of cheap labour for ageing Western nations are intentionally impoverished and dysfunctional societies as a means to keep the West enriched and at an artificially privileged position in material terms. Imperialism and exploitation don't factor into bullsht fraudian and shitlib debates over saving the immigrants. How about saving humanity as a whole and making everyone's homeland a liveable, sustainable society (I know, a novel, utopian idea)? They say Ireland is underpopulated and we need more people. Do we fck. There are too many selfish, ignorant, greedy automatons around as it is, degrading and destroying everything they touch...the island already has the most degraded biosphere in Europe as it is but it's never enough...the little beauty and natural wonder that remains needs to be used up any way possible to turn that profit.
In 1944, the Germans imported hundreds of thousands of Jewish Hungarians to Auschwitz, separated the wheat from the chaff, disposed of the chaff up the chimney and put the remainder to work. European countries have been doing this since the end of the war, except that the 'useless' mouths stay at home to die slowly. Before the nazis, European slavers did the same thing to Africans. The last working-class hero in England.
Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018 Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021
Re: Population crisis, again. Am I the only person in the world that actually celebrates declining.....
4) why is still considered that 65 is the magic figure of old age, I aam a baby boomer, and 65 is no longer old age for most. We could redefine old age by starting retirement at 68 or even 70, we'd still be living longer and in better health in retirement than our parents and grandparents. and bingo, problem solved. Vs 2 million more immigrants in perpetuity. I continued working as a GP until the age of 72 years, almost 50 years as a practicing physician.
It's not John. It's 66 soon to rise to 67. of course that's all about the government saving money by not paying any pensions till as late as possible in the hope you die first.
On exactly who dies, a practicing physician as I'm sure you know, doesn't suffer from the same physical wear and tear as a labourer or metal worker: as a consequence health professionals such as yourself have a much lower mortality rate ( in fact the best) and live quite a bit longer. The Best way to deal with retirement age would be to have some kind of sliding scale from highest mortality to lowest so at least some worn out working class people get to actually retire and doctors such as yourself don't die of retirement boredom...
Well, you're right - my remarks about retirement shouldn't be over-simplified. It wasn't part of my thesis. Of course, those working in heavy manual jobs might not wish to continue them, but I did mention re-training, education. For instance, part-time jobs in the retail sector, service sector, government agencies, whatever. Please don't make the assumption I didn't think of those issues, and I was blithely suggesting everyone works until they drop.
Sadly you're missing the big picture here. When I was born in 1946 my then life expectancy was about 66 yrs. I am now 78, and anyone born today has a life expectancy of 81 years. In other words a pensioner from age 65 in 1946, would only have a few years in pensionable retirement. Even at age 68 yrs pensionable age, nowadays there's a more than even chance of living another 13 years or so.
What really annoys me though, as I'm part of the first wave of baby boomers, which finished in the mid 1960's, government, and societies have had fifty years of notice to put in place the policies, the services, the health facilities and care for this cohort moving through the population. It sadly seems that in politics that even fifty tears' notice is insufficient for planning and adjustment. Actually it makes me angry, it's the same here in NZ of course.
Not only that but the costs of looking after pensioners and the available medical treatment have rocketed. You cannot expect an ever decreasing proportion of those in working age to support ever increasing numbers of non-working pensioners. It's unfair. It's not a fair social contract. So labelling this as a cost-saving exercise might be accurate, but it's also unfair because governments are responsible for the welfare of everyone in society, not just the elderly. .
All I was pointing out was that high rates of immigration do not make sense to counter an ageing population, that a falling population isn't a bad thing, and , that there must be a hundred different ways that the elderly population can be cared for, along with providing them some remunerative work, which might itself raise quite bit of tax revenue. I mean, when I was working past pension age I paid considerably more in taxation than the benefit I was receiving. I was happy to work, it was a win-win. Surely we can do for others what I did for myself?
"All I was pointing out was that high rates of immigration do not make sense to counter an ageing population, that a falling population isn't a bad thing, and , that there must be a hundred different ways that the elderly population can be cared for..."
Yea... it's a big and complex subject. Certainly these high rates of immigration make no sense as the work isn't here to accommodate that many people. The manufacturing sector has been either off shored or neglected to death since Thatcher and even the service sector is now in decline. Self employment? Well, my local town in Scotland has more Turkish barbers than ever existed in Anatolia whilst Nail bars and Vape shops are likewise well over saturation level.
There going up to be an awful number of disappointed immigrants following the money in whatever way they can because, well, needs must.
Our politicians have no idea what they are doing aside from those who are "just following orders": its no surprise that this appears to be an unwritten undeclared western elite policy, and those who are making an absolute fortune out of the privatisation of provision and accommodation for these arrivals. These may of course be the same people...
Apropos lifespans, has anyone analysed it by class? I'm sceptical of the 81 years figure and wonder if rich bastards live forever now and the punters in Hull pop off at 46?The last working-class hero in England.
Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018 Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021
on February 18, 2025, 8:25 am