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BBC4 showing AJP Taylor's series from 1976..."The War Lords"...

Posted by Ed <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ed' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2025, 10:12 pm

...kicks off tonight at 10.45pm with Mussolini and then Hitler.
Full series on IPlayer.

Watched it at the time

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2025, 10:48 pm, in reply to "BBC4 showing AJP Taylor's series from 1976..."The War Lords"..."

I thought a lot of him in those days but he went down in my estimation as I became a more accomplished history man. Much of his stuff was ephemeral and some tendentious but he stung Alan Bullock rather constructively.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

I used to enjoy "War Walks" with Richard Holmes...

Posted by Ed <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ed' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2025, 11:27 pm, in reply to "Watched it at the time"

...couldn't really comment on his competence as a historian, though.
I remember plodding through Bullock's "Hitler: A Study In Tyranny" as a student, never went near him again after that.
Is there anything worth looking at by that Thatcher loving old soak, Norman Stone?

Re: I used to enjoy "War Walks" with Richard Holmes...

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 12:21 am, in reply to "I used to enjoy "War Walks" with Richard Holmes..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Heiden
I liked War Walks too but I prefer analytical history. I was surprised that all the guff written about Mons and Le Cateau isn't from the official history, which is quite muted.

I once annoyed people at the Derriford Hospital pharmacy dept in Plymouth by reading Bullock (2nd edition) and Taylor at the same time. Much of Bullock's narrative comes from Konrad Heiden and I quite liked it, reading on a coach from London to Plymouth but I read it backwards, the last section first and the first section last.

Stone wrote a good book on the Eastern Front in the Great War, considering the archives closed to 'western' historians.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

I'm a fan of AJP. Has good essay at start of John Reed's 10 Days that Shook the World

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 1:55 am, in reply to "Watched it at the time"

in the Penguin edition. Not sure Reed would have liked it, mind. Suggests that Reed got most of his info about the Russian Revolution from other journalists, never having been in person at many of the important meetings. That said, Taylor liked the book. So did Lenin! Which is not a recommendation, in my view. There's a tremendous film on the life of Reed called Reds, with Warren Beatty n Diane Keating.

Reed was well taken in by the Bolsheviks. Or maybe he just thought it acceptable to kill loads of workers in the name of revolution. I wonder what he thought when he saw the bosses being returned to their former positions of power in the factories or the generals of the tzarist White armies being given positions in the Red army after they surrendered.

A better book, by far, is The Bolshevik Myth, by Alexander Berkman, a diary of his 2 years spent in Russia during the Revolution. Starts off on board the Buford, the ship carrying him n his fellow Russians and Ukrainians to Russia after they've been unceremoniously dragged from their prison cells in the middle of the night, where he and his fellow inmates had been put for protesting the First World War. It shows his initial delight at hearing of the Revolution which he offers his full support. By the end of his 2-year diary he sees his dreams shattered by the Bolsheviks.

No recommendation by Lenin for this book. Strange that. Nor by AJP Taylor either.

Taylor, incidentally, also wrote an introduction to my copy of The Communist Manifesto.

Always liked AJP Taylor. Marched to the beat of his own drummer. Didn't care a toss what other people thought of him.

I'm a fan of AJP

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 9:15 am, in reply to "I'm a fan of AJP. Has good essay at start of John Reed's 10 Days that Shook the World"

That's why I bought the Communist Manifesto, about 65 pages of Taylor. I started reading it on the way back from Nottingham.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

I still remember fondly his appearance on Question Time with Robin Day.

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 9:43 am, in reply to "I'm a fan of AJP"

As I remember, AJP didn't answer one question. He literally (correct usage) kept his mouth shut the whole time. Robin Day found it very amusing. Or pretended to. I like to think Taylor had a bet with somebody as to whether he would have the balls to do it. Go on Question Time, not say a word and still collect his cheque at the end of the night.

And despite not saying a word he made more sense than the rest of them combined!

Re: I still remember fondly his appearance on Question Time with Robin Day.

Posted by Ed <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ed' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 10:46 am, in reply to "I still remember fondly his appearance on Question Time with Robin Day."

I always remember a classic moment from that episode when Day, getting a bit exasperated with Taylor who was having a bit of a laugh at some reply or other, thought he was clever and asked him if he wanted to actually reply to the question or just laugh...Taylor, to the great amusement of the audience replied something very like "No, I'll just laugh".
Day had been bested and he didn't like it.

I remember the tory on that panel too, one Sir Edward Lucas Gardner, who looked like an old tortoise poking his head in and out his shell.

It was back when QT was worth a look.

Re: I still remember fondly his appearance on Question Time with Robin Day.

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Re: I still remember fondly his appearance on Question Time with Robin Day."

I saw that too, I enjoyed the Tory (Officials) blustering away. ;O)

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Couldn't find it on iplayer.

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 12:50 am, in reply to "BBC4 showing AJP Taylor's series from 1976..."The War Lords"..."

Looked under T, W and L. Not there.

Found it

There's something under 'AJP Taylor' and 'The War Lords'.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link.

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 1:23 am, in reply to "Couldn't find it on iplayer."

That'll open the iplayer app, if you have it installed. During installation they'll ask you if you have a tv licence. Obviously, as the BBC never lies you must never lie to them either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p009bf3z/the-war-lords

Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link...Brian Walden...

Posted by Ed <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ed' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 2:01 am, in reply to "Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link."

Apologies Der, I should have included the link in my first post.

I remember slithery Brian Walden trying to copy AJP Taylor with his straight to camera monologues without notes.

Nah, you're ok. Memories of Brian Walden...

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 9:02 am, in reply to "Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link...Brian Walden..."

He had a way of talking whereby after every couple of sentences his tongue would fly out and scoop up any passing insect. Very offputting. Instead of listening I'd be waiting for the tongue.

Was he a "Labour" MP at one time?
I'm beginning to think "Labour" was always shite. Totally removed from labour. About as interested in labour as Thatcher was in freedom.

Re: Nah, you're ok. Memories of Brian Walden...

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 9:17 am, in reply to "Nah, you're ok. Memories of Brian Walden..."

Every time I think Liarbour can't sink any further it surprises me.

I was never out of bed early enough on a Sunday morning to watch Bwian.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

You've caught him well. Bwian, indeed. nm

Posted by Der <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Der' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 9:48 am, in reply to "Re: Nah, you're ok. Memories of Brian Walden..."

I keep Nantucket Sleighride on my I-pod ;O).... nm

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 1:31 pm, in reply to "You've caught him well. Bwian, indeed. nm"

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link.

Posted by Sleepy George <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=brengun' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 12:34 pm, in reply to "Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link."

Hi Der
Thanks for that useful link

AJP Taylor was a dreadful show-off but had much to show off
I remember c1970 a bunch of us crowded into the Physics Lecture room at UCL to hear a lunchtime lecture about August 1914. At 13.15 AjP took the plateform and without notes, or hesitation or repetition or deviation, or a glance at his watch, spoke for exactly 45 minutes and then quit, ignoring thunderous applause

His - profoundly erroneous - doctrine that big events have little causes could yield wownderfully enlightening and dramatic descriptions. His narrative climaxed with Gavrilo Princip drowning his sorrow over his botched assasination attempt, only to find the Archdukes car pull up next to his cafe table and give hime a second chance to change world history
gb

You are quite wrong about Brian Walden. True, he was a right wing Labour MP and a fan of Mrs Thatcher, but that should not matter. His journalism met a high standard of objectivity that is long gone from MSM

Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link.

Posted by Ed <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ed' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2025, 5:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link."

Can't agree with you about Walden...anyone as right-wing as him and who adored Thatcher, so much, would be incapable of objectivity and high standards...propagating and defending these sorts of policies inevitably entails deception and trickery.

I found a lot of his so called "incisive" and "combative" interviews, like the famous one with Thatcher about the resignation of Lawson, more like an exercise in finding out how many angels can dance on the point of a pin...ok, her got her in a bit of a flummox about Lawson because of his insistence on a "when and where" type question, but hardly any seismic or helpful revelations that mattered to the great unwashed...totally "Westminster Bubble" stuff.
But he wasn't about the people, was he? He was all for quashing union rights and scabbing for Murdoch.
When you get liars like Lawson exclaiming that Walden was "probably the most formidable and serious political interviewer in the business", you know something's not right!

Walden

Posted by Sleepy George <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=brengun' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 15, 2025, 6:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Found it. Thanks for the thumbs up. Here's a link."

You have obviously studied Waldens journalism and formed an opinion of him which will be more popular than mine.

In the Eighties Walden ran a Sunday TV show with peter Jay. Jay is another right-wing Labour villain for Lifeboaters to hiss. As a financial journalist in the 70s he introduced the now forgotten Friedmanite Monetarism virus to the UK. He was an awful snob and had no concern for the workers. I don't care)

Walden and Jay set a standard of fairness and clarity I have never seen equalled. Before every interview they sought to present the intervee s opinions more powerfully and fully than he would "Brian I could not have put it all better myself" I remember Tony Benn once saying. Such high level devils advocacy ruled out in advance ad hominens,

straw men, irrelevant gossip, which are the dishonest
staples of today's "Political Thinking"

Recently it has become impossible for the Left to get any kind of hearing at all - it has been driven underground into social media - but Walden and Jay actually gave it a fair hearing

gb

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