Well thanks guys - hooks and knots are getting changed! The snell knot i tried a few times a few years ago but i never felt confident with it - but i'm sure that will change. The funny thing was i was using the "long line hook" years ago and having great success with it at the same time people were rubbishing the idea of using a self hooking hook - now today they are using the circle hook and i'm just coming back to it - full circle you could say Thanks again guys