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Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Peter Warman on November 16, 2007, 5:25 pm

Hi All

This article below has appeared in this weeks Auto Express (13/11/2007) on page 24

It just goes to show how ill informed some motoring journalists can be and as a result tarnish the reputation of Independent Garages unfairly

Peter
PS: I know its hard, but please no bad language in your replies
PPS: Just in case you want to reply in person, you can e-mail Jack Rix at: newsfeatures@autoexpress.co.uk

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Paul Rose on November 16, 2007, 6:59 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"

Hi Peter, as well as spreading misleading information, this guy is contradicting himself. In one sentence he says

'All mechanics have to do is plug a computer into the faulty models ECU to to download the code, cross referencing this number to a database relating to the car REVEALS THE EXACT PROBLEM, AND THE FIX, TOO'
(if only it was that easy!!!!)

Then he says ' Even if the garage does get the details, the fault codes aren't flawless. They can be misleading causing technicians to replace components believing they are faulty'
(Make up your mind!!)

It is annoying where somebody in this position can publish damaging information to our industry. I will certainly be sending him an email to complain.

Paul Rose

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by jamesd on November 16, 2007, 8:03 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"
James Dillon

Hi Guys

My letter to the Editor of the magazine will read

"Dear Mr Johns

It was with much dismay that I read the above article in the most recent issue of your magazine.

It seems that your staff writer, Mr Jack Rix, has grossly underestimated the complexity of the problems faced by technicians, both independent and franchised, further perpetuating the misconception that diagnosing the modern motor vehicle is as simple as to “connect a computer to the ECU and download the code.”

There may indeed be 2434 fault codes within the Volkswagen Golf but the fact remains that even this large number of fault codes does not cover all of the faults which can affect the vehicle. This means that a vehicle may exhibit a symptom which the driver complains about, but for which there will be no fault code stored. This is particularly true of intermittent drivability faults. So, faced with this common situation, technicians must perform a battery of tests in order to attempt to discover the root cause of the problem. Many hours can be spent measuring and analyzing the various components, systems and sub-systems. Technicians can’t simply plug into a computer for the answer.

The other all too common scenario is that the technician is lucky enough to be presented with a fault code, but the definition of the stored code may simply add to the confusion. By way of example; a vehicle is presented to the garage with a customer complaint of intermittent rough running. The technician retrieves the fault code with his computer of P1336. The manufacturer’s description of this code is Engine Torque Monitoring Adaptation at limit. Simple eh?

Please be assured that this diagnostic conundrum faces both the independent repairer and the franchised dealer in equal measures."

Any comments before I send it would be much appreciated.

Regards

James.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by martin young on November 16, 2007, 8:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

james
i think i will go with your answer because mine is he is a pratt who hasnt done enough research into what he is talking about
martin
thats the polite answer

ps could mr rix do a demo i would love to see it

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Andrew West on November 16, 2007, 10:40 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"
Andrew West

Hello Peter,
Thanks for making us aware of this article , here is my response to it.

To whomever it may concern,
I am very shocked and disappointed to read your article titled, "Garages in fault code confusion".
The article that has been written is so damaging to the automotive trade, because it has obviously not been researched properly.
If you think that it is so easy to just "plug a computer into a faulty models's ECU & download the code"& "crossreferencing this number to a data base reveals the exact problem, and fix, too",then I would like to offer you the opportunity to visit my garage & try your hand at diagnosing these easy to fix problems that we regularly come across & if you find it as easy as you say ,then I would also like to offer you a job, but I would think that if you could write such an idiotic,mindless article, that you will not stand a chance of even knowing where to start diagnosing most of the problems that we come across.
I am amazed that you can write such an article, especially after being advised by the Autodata spokesperson that "Even if a garage does get the details,the fault codes aren't flawless."They can be misleading , causing technicians to replace components believing they are faulty". "
You are tarring all independant technicians with the same brush & making us all look bad in the process.In reality even though the main franchised dealers have the equipment to diagnose problems ,they are usually the ones that just keep fitting parts , because the computer told them that it was faulty & usually get away with it because either they take parts off the parts department shelf, borrow them from another vehicle or just fob the customer off , telling that all the parts that they had fited were needed when they were not.
I think that you need to publish a huge appology in your next publication of your magazine, stating that you have mis-informed your readers, because you have not actually experienced the difficulties of trying to diagnose the quite often very complex faults that modern cars have nowadays.
I look forward to your response.
Regards,(a very annoyed )Andrew
Ps trying to deal with mis-informed customers is bad enough with all the information available on the internet without you having to add to it.
Kind regards,Andrew

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Alan Kane on November 17, 2007, 1:32 am, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"
Alan Kane - Administrator

What a load of rubbish, overall, but also some very slight semblance of truth.

Look at the box entitled “code breakers”. The title has nothing to do with diagnostics and is no more than pure sensationalism. That sets the tone for most of the piece.

Unfortunately, the opening paragraph is, in general, true.
Everything after that however is pure rubbish. It looks like the author established one fact and then made up the rest just to fill the column inches.

The author obviously has absolutely no understanding of his chosen subject and Auto Express should print both an apology and a retraction.

If Autodata were quoted out of context then they should make a statement as well as seek a printed apology.

Something like this just goes to highlight why the independent side of the business needs to be both regulated and properly represented. If there was an effective representative body they would have no problem sueing over this based solely on the untrue generalisations of the article.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Joe McGeoghan on November 17, 2007, 10:11 am, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"
Joe McGeoghan

The man's a fool.

E-mailed.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by brian on November 17, 2007, 7:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

hi james where did he get his info from ?

can he actually read ?

why as most writers etc are supposed to do did he not check his source of info was correct ?

other than that same old crap in the press

regards

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by neil webb on November 18, 2007, 6:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Neil Webb

It would be a good idea for Mr Rix to get an invite to the final of technician of the year,with the judging team, I'm sure he would find it enlightening.
Wonder how many dealer techs will enter the competion?
Neil

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Michael Whitworth on November 18, 2007, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Neil.

One dealer tech was in the last three this year!

Mike

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Peter Warman on November 19, 2007, 3:08 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"

Hi All

I have sent the Technical Article below to Mr Rix at Auto Express, if he reads the article and is still of the opinion that all Independent Garages have to do is "Plug, Read and Replace" then i have offered temp passwords for him to have the "Right to Reply"

Hopefully the article may also be read by the general public who are being misled into thinking we are overcharging for fault finding

Peter

Link: http://ukautotalk.com/images/AudiA4.doc

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Tony gould on November 19, 2007, 4:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Tony Gould

Nice one Peter,
Perhaps we should send him a few more and see what diagnosis he would give,before we give him the fix
Tony

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by aidan birley on November 19, 2007, 6:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Aiden Birley

Hi All

I agree with all that has been said above, but would add that I feel that some members of the trade give out wrong signals with the way the present the issue to the customer.

Firstly our local paper carries weekly ads from three garages (including one who claims to be specialist diagnostic cennter) offering a 'code read ' for £25, most of us would agree that a code read on it's own is of little use. The problem is by advertising like that, Joe public gets the wrong impression I feel.

The other trap that is easy to fall into, is doing a 'quick code read ' while the customer looks over your shoulder, this generality has two outcomes, A quick solution that they then begrudge paying for, or the scanner etc. lets you down and you look like you don,t no what you are doing. I try now try to explain that in depth investigation is likely to be needed suggest the vehicle left with us, like we would for any other job. It is of course important to make sure you are are clear on the fault and often a good idea to go for a drive with the customer to asses his concerns

Just my thoughts

Aidan

Aidan

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by derek sumnall on November 19, 2007, 9:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Derek Sumnall

Hi Peter

Perhaps we should look up the motoring journalists motto, could it be "Don't let the facts come before a good story.

Dek

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Paul Rose on December 10, 2007, 7:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

James Dillon's response was published in this weeks issue (990) of Auto Express. It looks like they have toned it down from James's original words.

I don't know how to post the Jpeg of the message otherwise I would do it. I can email to somebody if they want to post it.

Kind regards

Paul

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Mark Carter on December 10, 2007, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

Here Here.
Do the job right and charge the right price
Regards Mark.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by chris hogan on December 11, 2007, 5:56 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"

copy of my email to the editor

Dear Sir/Madam
about your article on fault code confusion what a load of rubbish example ford focus 07p006b = Wiring Fault or Map sensor fault or egp sensor fault or ecm fault or ecu faulty first we obtain the codes then we go through a structured diagnosis using state of the art tools such as laboratory oscilloscopes and serial diagnostic equipment we cant just "plug it in and retrieve the fault " Jack rix should do more research before publishing such crap we spend thousands of pound on equipment and software from manufactures such as bosch esi autodata carscan sykes pickavant snapon if there was a tool that would do what the article says it would be inside the time machine next to the gold maker.

Chris Hogan

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Roger Jordan on December 12, 2007, 9:02 pm, in reply to "Garages in fault code confusion"

It would appear that James D has beaten me to it, I was going to suggest putting Mr Rix (I assume with an article like this one he is indeed related to Brian Rix ! ) in contact with James and inviting him to one of his excellent seminars whereupon after James` presentation Mr Rix could show the audience the error of their ways, forget their `scopes and the previous couple of hours talk and simply "plug in, fix`n go " if only, if only.
Please someone invite this gentleman into their workshop for a week, he obviously spends far to much time in cloud cuckoo land.
PS when are you next in Devon James?

Best regards Roger Jordan.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Frank Massey on December 14, 2007, 1:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

Hi Guys
I thought you might like to see a copy of the letter sent to Auto-Express on the 17th November , as yet no takers for the work experience

Dear Editor
In response to your magazines article (code confusion)I agree completely that in a complex world that a little knowledge will indeed lead to a great deal of confusion,having digested the contents written by Jack Rix it is obvious hat he is not only confused but totally out of touch with developments in automotive electronics and diagnostic processes. He appears to be making the classical error of assuming that a stored DTC (diagnostic trouble code)relates to an indisputable fault of which no further investigation or qualification is necessary. The code and it's relevant serial data which has far more diagnostic value can at best be a guide and starting point. It could represent a genuine defect in the monitored value, a genuine sensor error , a wiring fault which includes power supply and ground errors or be due to a signal plausibility problem.You could be forgiven for abandoning common sense years of training and tens of thousands of pounds of diagnostic equipment all in exchange for a 2p tin whistle and a DTC list.Unfortunately in the real world the reality is quite different The average vehicle today can have in excess of 90 modules communicating on a dozen CAN (controller area networks)the result of which often demands the very highest calibre of diagnostic ability supported fully with real-time circuit testing. There is an expression which I regularly use in both my training courses and technical topics "cause and effect",your Mr Rix has caused an injustice and insult to those professional highly focused technicians in the aftermarket sector,the effect of which will only add to the distrust of your readership.I do however recognise the difficulty in seeking out skilled technicians who have invested in hardware,extensive training and infrastructure to offer the general public a genuine choice and a valuable resource.No doubt our Industry like journalism have a few people who haven't got a clue what's going on. I suggest as a matter of urgency you publish a retraction and as a suggestion send your Mr Rix to me for a weeks experience,following which I trust he will produce a balanced editorial.

Kind regards
Frank Massey FIMI
ADS Ltd
www.ads-global.co.uk

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by tony bickers on December 14, 2007, 6:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

Professional response Frank, unfortunately the press cretins are only ever looking for headline grabbing articles so I doubt very much whether they will even bother replying even if they know they are in the wrong, stand to be corrected though if they do reply !

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by ROGER JORDAN on December 14, 2007, 8:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"

A weeks experience with Frank Massey, now that`s what I call a result, how many techs on here would give their eye teeth for an oportunity like that? perhaps Mr Rix is not the fool he appears after all !!!!!!
Best regards Roger Jordan

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by James Dillon on December 14, 2007, 8:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
James Dillon

Hi Team

As Paul Rose pointed out, my response to the editor did get published in the magazine, and for that a certain amount of respect must be given to the editor. However, my reply was edited in the 'house style' (read into that what you will) and there wasn't a particularly good reference to the original piece. At least it did get across the gist of what we felt about the article.

Congratulations must go to all those who made the effort to contact Auto Express. I guess you could say that we have managed to 'adjust their attitude' towards our profession.

I have spoken with the editor and invited their representative to attend workshop, training or seminar sessions to take a look at real world situations, hey, you never know. I'm not holding my breath though!

I have also sent them a copy of my latest book on Modern Diesel Technology, and a copy of my Oscilloscope Diagnostics book. This is so that Mr Rix can build his understanding of modern technology, and gain an appreciation of the skill level required to fix modern motor vehicles

.

One thing is for sure; the more emails and letters magazines receive from the trade in situations such as this, the harder they will think before publishing such utter tosh again.

And, it does show the power that a fully inclusive community forum can have. Well done UKAT.

Regards

James.

Re: Garages in fault code confusion

Posted by Andy Amor on December 15, 2007, 11:31 am, in reply to "Re: Garages in fault code confusion"
Andy Amor - Autodiagnos

Roger.

I'm sure Frank had a chargeable week in mind rather than a gesture of good will

Well done to both James and Frank for two excellent pieces of written work!

Regards

Andy A

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