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Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Tim Hart on January 21, 2009, 8:58 pm

I would like to try and gather some feedback from the professional independent garage, and the self employed independant operator, for work that I am involved in, with other involved stakeholders, regarding the secure release of vehicle security information. My involvement in this is as an Auto-locksmith,and a member of Master Locksmiths Association representing locksmiths that are affected by the existing arrangements, as of course the independent repairers are.
This work is being carried out as part of Euro 5/6 regulations from Brussels, with involement from VM's and other stakeholders, including the RMIF.
Without wishing to undermine anyone involved, as it can get quite political, I would simply like to ask for constructive, positve feedback from the guys who actually do the work, up and down the country.
Your responses will have a direct impact on how this process might work in practice.

The process has reached a stage where it looks like that as part of an accreditation process for independent garages, the self employed independant operator, and I might add any other professional independent repairer, including locksmiths for the secure release of vehicle security information, you will have to show a "proof of trade" the question is.

If YOU had to prove your legitimate involvement in the repair of vehicles how would you do it?

If possible this part of the process should be based on documents supplied, that can be checked by the accreditation body, (whoever that might eventually be)

regards

Tim hart

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Andy Evans on January 21, 2009, 10:25 pm, in reply to "Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hello Tim,
I would have thought trade references and some form of letter from your accountant would suffice.

hth Andy E

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Tim on January 21, 2009, 11:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Tim Hart

Hi Andy
what would you say constitutes trade references, where would they come from?
It was also thought that VAt registration might form some part?
The group that is working on this part of the project are trying hard to ensure that criminals and those that do not have a legitimate use for the information are kept out of the system of accreditation from the start.

Tim

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Graham Bullock on January 22, 2009, 12:23 am, in reply to "Access to repair information work in the EU"

Welcome to the forum Tim.

This, in my opinion could be linked to the thread further down the page about the new Motor Industry Code.

If everything worked correctly, you being a member of the Master Locksmiths Association should be proof enough of your legitimate involvement in the repair of motor vehicles, just as membership of the RMIF, MVRA, VBRA, IMI and the New Code should prove. But this will only work if these trade bodies actually do their job correctly and enforce a strict membership policy and not one of signing up anybody that will pay the fee. I think they are ideally situated to assess their members as they should be visiting every single one that applies to check their suitability, equipment, facilities and standards etc. I personally would like to see City & Guilds qualifications or equivalent at the site to be a standard requirement of membership to any trade association. All reputable repairer's should have no reason at all not to be a member of one trade association or the other, whilst all the unsavory characters around should have been refused membership.

Sorry Andy but, I don't think a letter from an accountant should be sufficient, as all he knows is you are self employed, mending cars and declaring the income. He does not know if you are a cowboy or a professional person or just laundering money. Quite often an accountant may be hundreds of miles away and he may have never visited you or your premises.

Trade references also could be given without any real proof of you being a professional. Around here our local motor factors appear to supply anybody who will pay and if you pay regularly and promptly then they would probably give you a reference. I don't consider that they will have checked your status as usually only the van driver would visit.

Edit -
I don't think vat registration needs to be a firm requirement, if you are vat registered - fine, but all it does is show you have a turnover above a certain limit. It does not prove you are not legally involved in doing your job correctly.

Not easily solved but you will have to start somewhere.

Graham

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Michael Whitworth on January 22, 2009, 8:26 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Tim,

I wish you the best of luck with this campaign, as independants we do need something in place to prevent a dealership monopoly and allowing us to continue trading in a professional competitive environment.

>>>>If YOU had to prove your legitimate involvement in the repair of vehicles how would you do it?<<<<

That is a hard one becuase in reality only the individual concerned realy knows if he is legit or not, so how far do you go to prove other wise? I think VAT reg number is a start but not exclusive as I know lots of proffessional one man operations that are not VAT registered.

Company accounts? again another that proves you are a motor trades person but what else does it prove?

Trade references? could prove how long you have been in business if you have had a long trading relationship with a particular supplier.

Would you go as far as a police CRB check?

I think the main issue here is tracability although this could lead to many repairers falling under suspician if ever a vehicle dissapears within a period of time after having had security work carried out by them.

Its a hard one Tim but I hope you manage to sort out a fair system.

cheers,

Mike

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by tim hart on January 22, 2009, 8:29 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hi Graham
I will read the thread you mentioned.
This EU wide project is fundemental to setting the requirements for access to this information, and as such your points made on the security of some of the checks that might be available are very relevant, and the problems can now be seen.
As for trade association membership being made compulsory, my understanding of this as it relates to this project is that you cannot force someone to join if they dont want to, i wont try to be smart and say why that is. I have to say that i wouldnt want to se any small companies or those self employed denied legitimate access as a result of this EU legislation just because nobody asked the question.
so come on chaps get your grey matter going and try to solve the problem.

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by tim hart on January 22, 2009, 8:43 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hi Michael
The Crminal background check is the corner-stone of these proposed checks and is really the only one so far.
Like you i want to make sure that no one who has a legitmate need for this information is excluded just because they have not been considered, and a bloody good effort made to get them accredited on a level playing field.
Out of interest has your industry been advised of this work going on by the RMIF etc etc?
Have any of you been asked for an opinion on how it might work?
But as always i dont want to stir up any politics with any of these associations, there is enough of that in the EU already

Tim

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Sean Connelly on January 22, 2009, 9:19 am, in reply to "Access to repair information work in the EU"
Sean Connelly

Tim,

This could be quite easy for us to prove, just check with VOSA as we are a VOSA MOT Testing Station

So that means the 19K other MOT testing stations are also legitmately in the trade.

I'm guessing that there will be a number of acceptable proofs that will have to be considered, i.e. membership of any credible scheme such as RMIF, IMI Members, etc.

HTH

Sean

P.S. I've already had my CRB check done as well

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Dave Harney on January 22, 2009, 10:38 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Dave Harney

Will a letter from my Mum do ?

Seriously though, Why not have one senior person from each company that will require access to security info "registered" with each Manufacturer supplier as the Responsible person.
This responsible person will be required to have a Police CRB check done.
The supplier's could then set up a password system so that info will only be released to that person.
Maybe they could also restrict to companies who are registered with Companies House (Don't know if crims bother to register or not !)

Regards
Dave

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Graham Bullock on January 22, 2009, 3:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Graham Bullock

>>>> Maybe they could also restrict to companies who are registered with Companies House <<<<

I maybe wrong but I think that would only include Limited companies, which would restrict a lot of independants and sole traders.

I think the CRB check is a good Idea, it is around £45 to £50 per person I think, and as Dave said you only really need one person per establishment.

Graham

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Peter Warman on January 22, 2009, 3:58 pm, in reply to "Access to repair information work in the EU"
Peter Warman - Administrator

All sounds as if it could get very expensive

Could one or two established motor trade bodies oversee the release of security codes and perhaps issue a yearly renewable license to one person at each company, possibly like a smart card similar to MOT testers (if codes are accessible online)

Will all the manufacturers be made to set a standard charge for each code? could the license incorporate the cost of accessing the information for all manufacturers

Peter

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Barry Eger on January 22, 2009, 8:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Why should we have the problems.

If the owner of the car has all the right documentation then as "the owner" they should be able to retrieve all security and operating codes from the steelers (and in this case I use the word as its meant) as a right.

How can they charge for something that should follow the vehicle, after all they take the risk of give the owner a key so the vehicle can be used, giving the security codes cant be any more of a risk!

Just a thought

Barry

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by tony bickers on January 22, 2009, 10:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

wrong thread

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Frank Massey on January 23, 2009, 10:39 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hello Tim
I begin by accepting that you mean no discredit with your mention of the aftermarket repairers and their connection with criminality. And begin by accepting that you will never eradicate crime from vehicle repair. Sophisticated criminals obtain as much information from manufactures and dealerships as they undoubtedly do from the aftermarket. Your key focus should be how to reduce it to a minimum and promptly catch those responsible and punish with sufficient deterrent.
The answer lies within the technology itself proving a legitimate business with no criminal involvement is futile, however access in vehicle systems and data is now a procedure which involves the use of secure internet IP addresses were access codes and software are obtained. Manufactures of key diagnostic tools and the end users should form part of a secure internet data base instantly cross referencing the electronic identity of both the vehicle and critical security components during the process of coding and programming. This secure data base can have a monitoring or flagging system with interested parties Police Government security agencies, Insurance industry and the DVLA. By instantly cross referencing this data in real time and by that I mean when an end user logs on his unique IP address, with perhaps a vehicle which has a default flag set against it , it should be possible to catch such individuals , know there exact location. To answer your question about registration there are in effect quite a few genuine expert companies currently operating at this level, most of them are known through professional industry bodies and equipment manufactures.
Hope these ideas are of some use.
Regards
Frank

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Kelly Clarke on January 24, 2009, 11:18 am, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Kelly Clarke

Hi Barry
My thoughts exactly these codes are part of the vehicle and should be handed over at the time of sale and the owner able to keep them like the radio code. Vauxhall have done it for years with the car pass.
Yes i know they get lost once the car gets a few years old but the dealer should release them to the owner of the vehicle upon production of the v5 and proof of identification.

If all customers were like one of mine who went to but another VW armed with info from me that it would be prudent to get the security codes at the time of buying the car from the dealer so i could continue to do all his work and him not have to return to the dealer. The long and short of it was the dealers said they could not give him the codes so he walked and did not buy the car, he went to another and through the network bought the same car and was given the codes as they realised it was the difference between money in the bank or not.

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Michael Whitworth on January 24, 2009, 3:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Kelly.

Things have moved on..............

With more manufacturers using in/out code type systems now its almost impossible to issue a code with the vehicle when it is new. Also with more and more modules needing reflashing/programming/configuring/coding etc and the VMs making it even harder for the indies (Vauxhall for one) The future looks bleak indeed.

Mike

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Mark Tranter on January 25, 2009, 2:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hi
I think Frank is Spot on
"proving a legitimate business with no criminal involvement is futile"
We are being naïve if we think being a trader for however long makes us honest and reputable.
It makes more sense to secure the process itself
I would think most of the cloning etc. that goes on is behind the front of a legit business,so how would proving your activity as a trader make things secure?
CRB ??? what's the point ??? if you are a criminal with a record (remember not all criminals have been caught)you would just put forward a clean employee or front the business with a clean friend
If being a legitimate trader is the only criteria for security access all the criminal element would do is make sure they appear to be legitimate.
Franks suggestion seems good to me tho maybe a registered keeper and stolen vehicle check maybe all that's req I'm not sure
I do know however that criminals do not have a tattoo on their forehead saying what they are and they will do what ever they can to hide their activities.
A robust check of the individual access request is in my opinion the only way to go

My thoughts for what they are worth

Regards Mark

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Mark Tranter on January 25, 2009, 2:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Sorry posted in wrong place see above post

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Paul Gunstone on January 25, 2009, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"

Hi Tim,
I think Frank may be on the right lines with this, as in; you will never be able to keep track of a single persons 'proof of honesty & integrity' whereas, if, to obatain access the vehicle, the vehicle in question's details could be entered via a secure & logged static ip address & then cross referenced with the Vosa & Police computers to ensure that the vehicle is infact legitimate, and not so much the person applying for security access?? I would have thought that this would infact be a more acurate method of ensuring ONLY legitimate vehicles are allowed to be programmed & maybe illegal ones traced & returned??
Just my thoughts on the matter,
Gunner.

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by pete greenow on January 25, 2009, 7:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Peter Greenow

Hi All

I am with you Paul with a small amount of clever encryption at Vosa & Manufacturers level it should be possible to put a code in the car which ties up with a code on V5 and the supplier takes a reference from the repairer so an audit trail is setup .This would ensure that only bona fide traders could register with Vosa ( or some other body ) and only the legal owner could provide the code from V5.

This would keep the customers options open & stop the VM's creating a monopoly - or indeed using the "security threat" as a way of protecting there interests.

just my rambled thoughts

Pete

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by Phil Dunmore on January 26, 2009, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
Philip Dunmore

When you buy a computor with a licenced operating system you buy the right to use that system and updates are included(so far).
Why should vehicles be any different. The owner should have access to any codes for the life of the vehicle. End of story.
If information is provided with new vehicle and subsequently lost an admin charge is fair.
If the system is designed with rolling codes access should be free to owner.

Re: Access to repair information work in the EU

Posted by James Dillon on February 2, 2009, 10:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Access to repair information work in the EU"
James Dillon

Hi Team

The facts of vehicle theft in 2006 (latest data available) are:

EU legislation in 1995 made the fitting of electronic immobilisers mandatory on all new cars manufactured after October 1998

For cars registered after 1997, keys were used in 85% of incidents where the method of theft (referred to in the main text as modus operandi or MO) was known.

The most common methods of obtaining keys were through burglary (37%) and through the
owner leaving the keys in the car (18%).

Perhaps VOSA should be responsible for managing the applications to the genuine repairer list. Entry to the list could be through a combination of technician licensing (using something akin to the ATA model, plus accredited technician training on the specific VM’s system (the way GM are proposing)?

As Pete says, the audit trail is the key here to managing the system. Workshop codes input to new modules, static IP logins to vm servers, in-codes and out-codes, recording purchase of replacement modules are all acceptable solutions, so long as they are not cost prohibitive.

It is the consumer (the vehicle owner) who will pay in the end. However, the cost of accessing vm servers and software (and owing the factory tools/interfaces and training costs) to enable the typical repair workshop to cater for the bulk of vehicle manufacturers should not be prohibitive (from an initial investment perspective). As Phil states, why does the software ‘licence’, ‘in-code’, ‘security seed key’ or whatever remain the property of the registered owner (again as suggested encrypted into the V5 like the modern biometric passport)? This would make it more straightforward. In this case I still believe that VM specific systems training and general technical competence should be assessed before access to the vm server is given.

Part of the problem the independent sector has in getting workable legislation agreed is the complex nature of the specifics of this technical part of the industry, and the lack of understanding the lay political person or legislator has of it. The VM’s are adept at putting their point across, I feel that our section of the industry are probably less so.

Regards

James.

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