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Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #

Posted by James Dillon on May 14, 2015, 10:37 am

Hello all

I posted this article in a magazine recently which touched on the what I consider the slightly inappropriate training of electrical diagnostic skills at apprentice level.

Not aimed at the teachers, not aimed at the students, but rather at the process and methods used to try to impart electrical fault finding skills.

Do you have any experience of apprentices or recently qualified technicians and their electrical fault finding skills?

Did they or will they come out of their apprenticeship electrical fault finding skills appropriate for industry (and for your business needs)?

Do you consider the current level and perhaps style of teaching, or the content of the training (if you have any direct experience of it) fit for purpose?

I am really interested to get your views on this.

Kind regards

James.

Link: Electrical Skills

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Graham Bullock on May 14, 2015, 4:03 pm, in reply to "Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #"
Graham Bullock

In my opinion it is not just the electrical fault finding skills that are poor, it is almost everything that they ram into the three years before they are supposed to be fully skilled.

I was going to college on day release for a total of seven years when things were simple, this probably explains why they have to skip so much now. Some students I have come across would struggle to locate a fault on a standard lighting circuit and wouldn't stand a chance on an engine management system but they have had extensive help in producing a good CV and at up-selling themselves.

It may be harsh but I think part of the problem is the quality of the students entering into the trade. It always appears to be the ones who are academically challenged who are then pushed into the apprenticeship schemes when all the good and mediocre children are pushed into university.

Over the years I have had quite a few apprentices but I now don't bother because there is so little reward (and I don't mean financial) and to be really truthful this could also be said for some of the training I have done myself recently. For example, my air con training had an open book exam and at college that doesn't even have OFN test equipment which left me thinking that was another waste of time and money for a certificate that nobody ever checks anyway. I would have liked to have felt "that was a challenge, an achievement and very worthwhile" and if I had to employ somebody that had done the same course I could feel that they actually had put some effort into getting that qualification.

There are many questions on this subject which I do feel passionate about and when you look at the average age of the people on these forums, doing the extra training courses or attending IMI meetings etc something has gone wrong somewhere.

I have no idea how the college is financed for it's students, do they get paid per student regardless of the course results or per student that actually gains a pass? How reliable are the assessors in recording true life training or is this just another paper trail that has to be completed regardless?

If technician licensing became mandatory, should a student be expected to come out of training at a standard equivalent to ATA and be able to go straight onto the professional register? If so, do you consider they are at that standard now?

Graham

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Simon Kefford on May 14, 2015, 5:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"

I agree mostly with what Graham has said. I have been scouring the industry for 3 years to find a suitable Technician. The last guy I took on was just out of his level 3 C&G. I asked all the prospectives who all had amazing CVs "can you explain how an O2 sensor works" he was the only one so got the job. In his first month I sent him down to James to a boot camp. He came back full of joy and knowledge. Problem was he never put any more effort in, he could test to my test plans but couldn't produce his own. Anyway he has now had the heave ho. Another Story.

My wife is an NVQ internal verifier in a different trade but the principal is the same. "Get them through or the Training Company / College doesn't get paid. My local college offering C&G NVQ in motor vehicle has a 50% drop out rate. Mostly due to apathetic young men who have been pushed into vehicles because they aren't academic and dont know what else to do.

Here and certainly in the US the industry is rife with dyslexia. So many problems arise from communication issues between techs and reception.

The level of knowledge and mental agility needed to master the systems on modern cars is at degree level. So how can we expect poorly educated, disaffected young men to meet the challenge.

The industry has severely let itself down by not promoting the variety of jobs available. Top Technician should be televised with the production values of Master Chef. The industry needs to totally revamp its image. No more greasy Herberts with spanners in there hands please.

I now have a young female apprentice in 2nd year who is brilliant! We are training her on electrics/tronics now before she even gets to level 3. I doubt she will ever hold a camshaft in her hand.

To sum up the answer is no. The training for modern technicians is seriously lacking.

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Jon Morgan on May 14, 2015, 7:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"
Jon Morgan

I agree with both Simon & Grahams posts.

We have limited experience of apprentices, the last one we had (who left 2 years ago) was only keen to pimp his ride & showed no interest in developing his skillset.
From day one we told him electronics & diagnostics were key to a successful future in the motor trade.

He had access to the largest VAG technical library i have ever seen (compiled with a lot of hard work), access to the VAG training website, a good selection of diagnostic equipment & techs willing to teach him how to use it........

He rarely asked questions on how stuff works & never took any interest in the job.

He now spins filters at Toyota & does MOT work.

Careers officers in schools need educating - the motor trade is no place to be pushing academic failures with no interest towards progressing in life & developing new skills.

The stories are rife of local garages employing no hopers with no motivation - things must change or this trade is going to be in crisis in a few short years.

At least main dealer training is still ongoing, but seems to be largely attended by those looking for a free dinner & a desk to sleep on.

James, you are very lucky.
Technicians attending your courses aim to be the best at what they do. training at your level is rewarding.

A friend of mine recently started work at a technical college to train level 3 - he lasted 2 x days before he went back to shop floor Master Tech.

No structure to the training & no interest from either students or college staff were his reasons for giving it up as a dead loss.

On Monday he was keen, by Wednesday he was suicidal.

Probably looks like I just had a rant - sorry....

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Leo Dack on May 14, 2015, 8:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"

The standard day release training is poor, too old school and some of the teachers arenâ€™t up-to speed with the latest tech.

I carried out my NVQ about 11 years ago... (Doesnâ€™t seem that long!) - luckily I also attended many Vauxhall courses at the same time, as well as reading the yellow bosch books - all these together gave me a good under pinning knowledge but most of my learning was due to the fact I was lucky enough to be left to my own devices as an apprentice whilst at the dealer.

I do have two apprentices at the moment (Spoke to you about them recently James) - and Iâ€™m keen to train them up, just struggling to work out the best approach. Iâ€™ve booked the youngest one on about 6 Vauxhall courses later this year to see what he can pick up. Iâ€™d also like to get him down to you at some point James.

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Dave Hill on May 14, 2015, 10:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"

I actually replied at length to this on Facebook today (sign of the times I suppose), so here is the copy n paste . . .

Hi James

A great article & subsequent discussion here.

I have limited experience of the skill level of these youngsters & I have to agree with you (& so it seems, everyone else who is replying). There appears to be a perception that the electrical element (no pun intended) of our trade is almost a separate subject & something that is to be farmed out to those who specialise.

In a similar way that the majority of the trade now outsource certain repairs, such as Diesel Pump / injector test & repair & also transmission repairs & rebuilds etc, I believe that electrical work is often seen as too complex for most techs to tackle effectively & efficiently. It isn't the technicians fault in my opinion, as it is a cultural problem that the trade has allowed to evolve. Or rather we haven't evolved as we needed to!

Mechanic or Technician?

I often wonder if some folks are happy to hide behind the title "mechanic" rather than "technician"? The former implies a role more suited to spanner work, whereas the latter can be seen as a more elite role, one which many mechanics don't feel comfortable adopting. It would be interesting to know, how the guys (& galls) refer to themselves when asked what they consider their role is. Perhaps modern apprenticeships should be separated into subgroups, to cater for mechanics & technicians in their own rights?

I have to lay my cards on the table & state my own position here. Back in the 80's I did my Motor Vehicle Craft Studies (City & Guilds), in which I achieved good results. Back then the opinion was that it was a watered down version of what my professional forbears had experienced. I was taught the mechanical aspect in reasonable depth I thought, but the electrical portion was lacking for sure. I went through the first ten years of my career, building on the knowledge that I learned at school & to a lesser extent at college. Truthfully though, my understanding of electrical principles was very poor.

The majority of the knowledge that I have today, has been achieved by my understanding of my limitations, or gaps in my arsenal of automotive repair solutions. I remember the feelings of inadequacy, when I replaced a starter motor on an Austin Maestro 2.0 Di & it didn't fix it & then when the subsequent starter didn't work either, I knew that something must be done to prevent further screw ups. Although I was quite young at the time & I take a good portion of the blame for that kind of bad diagnosis, I do feel that the culture of the garage (the owner, foreman & other staff) had a lot to answer for. Quite who is responsible for this "culture" I am unsure, but I think that it runs fairly deeply throughout the trade as a whole & still does. Many workshops still do "muddle through" electrically & will still outsource the job after they have exhausted their repertoire of parts darts.

I have to confess that I found (still find) the water analogy helpful. It gave me a visual representation of the invisible concepts, which I struggled to grasp. In the same way that I never understood the operation of the final drive differential by listening to the tutor or by reading the books & studying diagrams, instead I only slotted the pieces together (or rather the penny dropped), once I had gotten one in bits & had a hands on play with it. I think that many technicians have a similar experience with learning & that it is only when the practical examples are there before their eyes, that a fuller understanding is gained.

For me though, by far the biggest leap was gained when I took possession of my Picoscope. Although it has been a fantastic diagnostic aid, equally it has proved to be an educational experience too. I would add however, that a vital ingredient required in any personal development process & that is the willingness of the individual to partake. Sadly I have to say that think there is a significant problem in that aspect too. We could go on for hours about the makeup of our members, about lack of motivation & respect from our employers & the public, but that is too big for this discussion I think. Although it is massively relevant.

As someone said already, the college tutors are working within guidelines that are beyond their control & without a thorough & relevant syllabus, they are limited in what they have to work with. That said, A good teacher is a good teacher & they usually stimulate the interest of the class & drive home a good degree of learning. I am sure that we have all experienced good & bad training as adults too. In some cases the tutor clearly is knowledgeable, yet fails to deliver a good training experience, due to their underwhelming, tedious & monotone style of delivery. Without wishing to blow smoke James, I think that most who attend your Techtopics events, will agree that your explanations of complex subjects, with an interjection of humour & down to earth "real life" examples, make it an easier & more enjoyable experience.

I don't have specific knowledge of this, but I do question the quality & relevance of the current curriculum & also the experience of the tutors. A couple of years ago I was asked to attend the local College, so that I could do an afternoon talk to the motor vehicle department, on the value & use of the scope in the modern workshop. Although the guys were clearly clued up with the fundamental subjects, it soon became clear that they were light years behind where we are at the coal face (so to speak).

You are right to raise this subject James, as I believe that we are already experiencing a skills shortage in our trade & if things remain unchanged, then the fast pace of development will accelerate the problem & I firmly believe that vehicle owners will have a hard time finding someone who is able to effectively fix their ride.

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by tony bickers on May 16, 2015, 7:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"
Anthony Bickers

Probably about 6 no's back to back there Graham, from what I see of "craft" students as opposed to "TEC" students, which was the system I qualified in, in early to mid eighties, no comparison,

How many here went to the Greenford skills centre in North London in the eighties, that was the industry standard then, what is frightening is how many candidates could not build up a rocker shaft from a box of bits on a OHV engine, I know things move on, but my local tech college has just laid off a load of tutors,less tutors means less tuition, and that is due to Osbourne !!

And he is about to reduce funding further, you reap what you sow, and this election has sown seeds of hell !!

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by tony bickers on May 16, 2015, 7:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"
Anthony Bickers

My MOT station took on a lad whose father is a great tech, on a trial, his lad , literally , did not know how to make a cup of tea, and that is gospel !!!

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Kris gordon on May 16, 2015, 7:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"

As someone who completed college within the last ten years, I can confirm the lack of electronics and diagnostic skills taught at college and I have spent the last couple years hunting down information and courses to attend. I see scanner danners class in america and hope that one day we will have something similar. Then I here of people getting great opportunities and not taking them. I have a friend that works in a garage near me and I said that once he finishes college he could work with me and I'll send him on training and he said he had no interest in further training!

At college I was shown a Picoscope and this sparked my interest in fault finding. But I was shown a simple waveform and not how to use it or analyse it. I was taught about the components of and alternater and a starter motor but not about the simple workings of a relay.

The only advantage of the lack of skilled techs is that we get the work others can't handle but the downside being, they try the cheaper unskilled 1st and by the time we get it, there fed up and skint. I hope it changes.

Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Lee Mackintosh on May 16, 2015, 8:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"
Lee Mackintosh

Tony,

my understanding of politics is very weak but unless I mis-understood Cameron 18-21 year olds on job seakers allowence after a set time (6 months I think) will be forced into community work or an apprenticeship.

Some will know doubt agree with this but how will this actualy happen and what is there to gain from forcing a lad into an apprenticeship in something he or she has no interest in, how does this benefit us as the employer (obviously if it was aimed at us)

I actually believe its down to wages to a point, other trades as an apprentice earn far more than what youngsters do or did.

I have no knowledge of wages thesedays but do know 6-8 years ago an apprentice sparky my mate employed earnt £120-£150 per day depending on job type. More of a specialist side of his trade but how does this compare to our trade apprenticeships.

Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #

Posted by Graham Bullock on May 19, 2015, 3:02 pm, in reply to "Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #"
Graham Bullock

James, given the replies both here and on your facebook page I would be interested to know what your views are.

If you think the training is lacking, what would you suggest for the future? Longer training, more training concentrated on the subject, or separate this particular subject altogether for those that do this kind of work?

Graham

Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?

Posted by Rob Nicholson on May 20, 2015, 11:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentic Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose?"

James

Interesting topic and I agree with most comments further back!

In my opinion unfortunately far from FFP! I have trained many school leaver apprentices over the years and am continually disappointed with the level of classroom training of the fundamental basics never mind in depth stuff that they receive whilst on their ‘day off’ at the local college. How on earth can / will they be able to repair vehicles if they have a lack of understanding of the working principles surely college is for that and the workplace is for the ‘hands on’

Being centrally located between two towns I have tried each ones college they both have excellent facilities (we must be lucky on that one no lack of gov spending here) but neither to me have provided training (particularly electrical) that is fit for purpose.

My last apprentice (I have been lucky with him he has had a car interest since 10 and helped his dad build his trikes / offroad Landrovers) finished his NVQ3 last year and I have taken him on, to combat the lack of suitable training from his local college whilst on the summer break after completing and passing year 2 I sent him on the Bosch training course - essential test procedures – in his own words he told me he had learnt more in the two days on that course than he had in two years at college! Consequently he has just done the Bosch scope course this week and is progressing well.

A good tech can be produced by training from scratch but we need the colleges to up their game, I think it has been said but to me as they only receive their pot of cash on results does any trainee good, bad or indifferent ever fail a NVQ??

I am on the BCS forum when I heard of the Bosch proposal to train apprentices by block release that seemed like a breath of fresh air but unfortunately I can see that this will not suit everyone.

Rob

Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #

Posted by Martin Desbrulais on May 25, 2015, 10:18 pm, in reply to "Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #"
Edited by board administrator May 26, 2015, 1:58 pm

In some respects, it shows the industry trying to move forward, however electrical /electronic fault finding should be a totally different trade, it is far to in depth for young kids, in the Construction industry their are numerous CnGs to specialise in for Electricians, before I switched trades I was fortunate to have an HNC in Electrical Electronic Engineering, this took me far deeper into the mind of the car, one thing I lacked at the beginning was experience, no different to anyone else, the other thing is pay, why would anyone want to cross over from an electronic background. The industry needs to take a reality check, its driven by profit and sales and the technical side has fallen behind whereas the software/hardware of the vehicle is moving forward in great technical strides.

Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #

Posted by Tom Williams on May 31, 2015, 7:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #"
Thomas Williams

"The industry needs to take a reality check, it's driven by profit and sales and the technical side has fallen behind whereas the software/hardware of the vehicle is moving forward in great technical strides"
This is very true, but not the whole story.

I got into the vehicle repair trade by taking the path of least resistance in joining the family business. Something I've lived to regret.

The motor trade is last place anybody with brains should choose and it shows. It's labour intensive and poorly recompensed. I have trained or attempted to train many apprentices over the past 40 years or so. I think it's fair to say that a great many of the aspiring mechanics were basically half-witted.

The training is very poor in all areas compared to the standard in the technical college I attended when I left school in 1971. It's not possible to single out electrical/electronic training. 'Dumbed down' is the phrase that springs to mind.

Training is largely unfit for purpose, but so are most of the trainees.

P.J. O'Rourke was right on the money with this:

"The problem with public school is not overcrowding in the classroom. The problem is not teacher unions. The problem is not underfunding or lack of computer equipment. The problem is your damn kids."

Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #

Posted by Peter Warman on June 1, 2015, 3:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Apprentice Electrical Diagnostic Training - Is it fit for purpose? #"

Hi Tom

I think you are spot on. The school leavers of today are just not interested enough in our trade. We have about 2 or 3 letters a month from school leavers asking about a job/apprenticeship, they list their interest such as tinkering with an old motorbike, learning to play the guitar or helping their dad restore an old camper van etc, they don't realise that modern vehicle technology is now on a different planet to themselves

When I started I was working weekends and holidays in a garage helping out at 14, left school and did an apprenticeship in electro mechanical engineering for 4 years before starting my own business at 21, still going 39 years later

. They used to give me jobs like a de-coke on a HA Viva van, could you imagine pointing the new apprentice in the direction of the Range Rover in the corner and asking him to change the two turbo's

Several issue arise now in our trade:

Probably around 20,000 Independent Garages in the UK, I would say around two thirds are like myself, sole traders or just 2/3 employees. We have all worked up from the early 1970's so most of us will be thinking of retiring in the next 5 to 10 years, do we really want to train ourselves up to all the new technology? and all the expense of new equipment to connect to modern vehicles and manufacturers websites.......existing vehicles will see us through to the end

So with two thirds of Independent gone in 10 years, that leaves the young guns between 30 to 50 years old to invest in training and equipment and have the motivation to carry on (if the manufacturers allow). But they will be up against it with manufacturers making them jump through hoops, eCall, Telematics, Advanced Hybrids and all electric vehicles

This is another reason why licencing is not necessary in our trade because all the old Independents will be gone, the Independents left will require more training and investment than we have now, the training on new vehicle systems will probably come with some sort of qualification or certification, Independents will probably have to have some vetting to be able to access dealer sites for technical information, so garages will be under more scrutiny than they are now

If a school leaver does want to get into our trade then it will have to be through the dealer route and probably specialise in a particular brand, they will have the resources to train him up (or her) and pay a decent wage when they are qualified to retain them

As James mentions in his post title "Electrical Diagnostic Training" that's all well and good, but fixing modern vehicles is not always about diagnostics, they also need good mechanical skills and an understanding of basic engineering principals (not taught anymore), no Independent is going to employ an apprentice to stand around all day with a scanner in one hand and a scope in the other, they have got to get stuck in and pay their way like the rest of us (and make the tea)

I must admit that this is a little gripe of mine, when people talk about a "Technician" we always assume they are a wizz with a scope and a wiring diagram, but fixing modern cars is also about diagnosing / fixing complex mechanical problems, I suppose you would just call them a "Mechanic"?......but changing timing belts and pulling heads off some modern vehicles requires as much skill as tracing a broken wire or dodgy sensor

So all the old boys will be gone, having retired or sold their properties to a housing developer, the smart Independents will survive in limited numbers, dealers will retain more work from telematics, and the fast fits will just continue to put dash lights out and fit brakes and tyres

Just my view of the future

Peter

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