Re: Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May Archived Message Posted by dovetailjoint on February 7, 2019, 7:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May" The pragmatic set of reasons, put simply, for the UK joining the European Union in the first place, and this applies to all of the member states to a greater or lesser degree; were that after the two great wars over Germany's future status, the European nations were so reduced and exhausted economically, culturally and militarily, that they were forced to join forces if they were going to have any kind of 'sovereign' or successful future at all. The whole thing started rather small between France and Germany and then grew bigger and deeper. In Germany it was obvious that they'd lost the wars, one couldn't hide the cost, so a different culture grew up there, a repudiation of militarism and empire. A break with the past. In the UK, however, the costs of the two great wars, the monumental conflicts with Germany... the collapse of the Empire, economic stagnation, loss of influence, becoming little more than a protectorate of the US, massive loss of real sovereignty... were disguised and ignored, because, on the face of it, Britain had won the war, not lost it, even though none of the reasons for going to war with Germany had been fulfilled. In the beginning survival wasn't a war aim. That it was the Russians and Americans that really defeated Germany and then occupied what was left of destroyed mainland Europe, wasn't part of the British narrative about the war, and both the left and the right were interested in promoting this national 'fairytale' for obvious reasons. Britain had the choice of being an important state within the United States of Europe, or being an unimportant state in the American Empire, with less influence than Israel. The reason the rightwing press are so critical of Europe is because Europe is becoming too strong and gradually pushing off the US yoke and slowly winning back sovereignty, but this is only possible together, otherwise they are all too small to stand up to the Americans. Outside the EU the UK will have to adopt the role of a willing and loyal vassal state in relation to Washington. This is the alternative reality the nationalists on the left and the right don't like to talk about. Out of the frying pan and into the fire . Message Thread: Brexit Poll - Tomski February 7, 2019, 5:05 pm Re: Brexit Poll - Ken Waldron February 7, 2019, 6:09 pm Re: Brexit Poll - dovetailjoint February 7, 2019, 6:48 pm Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May - Ken Waldron February 7, 2019, 7:09 pm Re: Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May - dovetailjoint February 7, 2019, 7:18 pm Re: Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May - dovetailjoint February 7, 2019, 7:23 pm Stuctural damage? - Keith-264 February 7, 2019, 7:43 pm Re: Stuctural damage? - Ken Waldron February 7, 2019, 8:23 pm Re: Stuctural damage? - dovetailjoint February 7, 2019, 8:59 pm Re: Stuctural damage? - dovetailjoint February 7, 2019, 9:34 pm "Labour is far more united than the Tories"! - Keith-264 February 8, 2019, 7:30 pm I forgot, you lost and can't get over it - Keith-264 February 8, 2019, 7:22 pm That's fine: "winning" apparently lead to nowhere aside from verbal repetition compulsion . nm - Ken Waldron February 8, 2019, 9:10 pm You can have the last word again....nm - Keith-264 February 9, 2019, 7:19 pm No you can't - Keith-264 February 9, 2019, 8:10 pm p.s. I left you the last word on our previous three direct exchanges. - Ken Waldron February 9, 2019, 11:06 pm Another repeat? Here you are then: "Yawn." nm - Ken Waldron February 9, 2019, 7:56 pm Gaslighting? - Keith-264 February 11, 2019, 11:38 pm Re: Brexit Poll - Myleftfoot February 8, 2019, 1:46 am Re: Brexit Poll - dovetailjoint February 8, 2019, 6:31 am   Searching