I am not against civilizational collapse .. Archived Message Posted by Shyaku on June 5, 2019, 4:41 am, in reply to "Aeon: 'Civilisational collapse has a bright past – but a dark future' (FAO Shyaku)" ..for many reasons. One is that 'civilization' in your quote is being used exchangeably in meaning with 'empire'. This may be a semantic trick that we have been conditioned with since our youngest years. Even if civilizational collapse merely meant something less ambitious like political collapse, then that seems fine too - I would say let nature take its course. According to Orlov's '5 stages of collapse', possibly all of them could collapse and still not address what I am really thinking about. What I am really thinking about is the slight difference between what you call nature and what I would refer to as nature. I feel that what you refer to as nature is everything apart from us, i.e. All the things we are ruining. Whereas, what I call nature would be a harmony between the human condition and all those other things, and part of the human condition is our curiosity, our incredible ability to make tools whose power has increased exponentially, and our vast knowledge, now, of the material world. I kind of subscribe to the T'man argument that if we can JUST change that part of ourselves, our nature, that is destroying nature itself and each other, what T'man may refer to as 'evil', then our wondrous curiosity, capacity for rational thought and knowledge and wisdom, could or would be fully in harmony with nature. It is my humble opinion that the use of rocket propulsion, for example, to send better and better robotic space craft to the far reaches of the solar system and beyond is fully absorbed by nature when done on a small enough scale. Not losing the collapse of this kind of thing, or the of two or three really big-assed telescopes, is worth the sacrifice of a few acres of forest on a planet this size. I really want to know where we came from. Personally I feel this puts me more in touch with nature not less so. It is through this very knowledge that we learn how nature created us. It is without this knowledge, that we come to the less satisfying conclusion there is an anthropomorphic creator, or maybe that there is a rabbit in the moon (or perhaps to paraphrase Monty Python the belief that kingdoms arose from some "some watery bint") puts me OUT of touch with nature, because nature in some form extends infinitely in all directions, and inwards right down to the molecular level, while superstitions are the ultimate human constructs. That's just my opinion. Regards, Shyaku. Message Thread: Aeon: 'Civilisational collapse has a bright past – but a dark future' (FAO Shyaku) - Ian M May 31, 2019, 11:53 pm In the current instance, it will mean a halt to growthforever, a population cull, and the chance for - Rhisiart Gwilym June 1, 2019, 6:50 am Re: In the current instance, it will mean a halt to growthforever, a population cull, and the chance for - Ian M June 1, 2019, 10:03 am Sometimes you just have to admit: fate has us in its grip, always, whatever we do. NOM - Rhisiart Gwilym June 1, 2019, 11:58 am I have a long flight tomorrow :-):-) - Shyaku June 1, 2019, 9:33 pm Re: I have a long flight tomorrow :-):-) - Ian M June 2, 2019, 8:02 pm I am not against civilizational collapse .. - Shyaku June 5, 2019, 4:41 am Re: I am not against civilizational collapse .. - Ian M June 11, 2019, 9:02 pm   Searching