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A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 12:27 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/17/robert-fico-shooting-slovakia-political-war

OK, this is just an opinion of one Slovakian commentator. Slovakia has been a deeply divided society apparently for some some time - she explains this very well. The Duran covers this event

But what I detect here in the West is the insistence of the blackness vs the whiteness of everything. Bush's your either with us or agin us. The EU vote - your in or your out.

Here's a country, like Hungary and other eastern Euopean nations, Bratislava to Moscow 1,000 miles and you can drive there, to Washington 4,500 miles and an ocean to cross. Even the name gives it away, Slovakia, Bratislava - a slavic country. Russia's a slavic country. There is absolutely no need to cajole or threaten Slovakia with consequences if they wish to continue some sort of healthy relationship with Russia.

So the idea that Slovakia has to make this false binary choice between one and the other is absurd. The idea, in the west, that any cooperation or acknowledgement of Russia and its leader, Mr Putin, is beyond the pale (an apt simile) is not just stupid, but dangerous. As the serious injured PM said just a few months ago, his job is to look after the interests of his countrymen, not those of external agencies. Now, Fico may indeed be something of an autocrat aks "populist" but the fact is that the Slovakians, in free elections, do keep voting him in. He's doing something right presumably.

And of course, in the UK any suggestion at all that we should be looking askance at NATO or thinking of negotiating with the monster Putin, you'll be shot down in flames, slurred, and subject to a very effective being sent to a distant political Coventry

It's just to be hoped that among the parallels to the times leading up to or around the First World War, that the attempted assassin's name isn't something like Princip, because the other parallels are fritghtening enough already.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 12:57 am, in reply to "A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

I guess, one should recognise the fact that Slovaks
(the government at the time) were in the Axis, in the early forties, so to speak. Not sure how many divisions they had at Stalingrad : /

I guess my point was/is that there are various 'axis' one could consider the above relative to this subject/object.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 1:11 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 1:29 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Interesting point, thanks. Nothing that straightforward in Europe. Still, I think my point about insisting on binary choices in geopolitical issues is wrongheaded and very unhelpful. The 'you're with us or against us' I mean we've even seen that in the Brexit debate in some of the extreme anti-EU rhetoric.

Not sure what you are referring to in the context of 'Brexit debate'. From memory, the 'socialist' LP stance has always been anti-EU. Tony Benn etc. It has come to pass w/Tony Bliar.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 4:46 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

The Brexit debate became a simple binary choice, no room for nuance or give and take.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 10:03 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Obviously; I take a grim satisfaction at the nauseating spectacle of some liberals squealing in anger at being thwarted by democracy. It shows what crypto-fascists they are.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 10:13 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Hmm, Keith, not sure you understand anything I wrote. You seem to be very much in the binary camp.....

You know, I worked 47 continuous years as a qualified medical practitioner. If I had taken on board the binary way of looking at problems that politicians and too many others do, I'd have had a lot of dead and dissatisfied patients and not a few scares with the Medical Council .

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 11:10 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

I do both; liberals specialise in pretending that there are grey areas in matters when there aren't, such as treating democracy as a moveable feast. Perhaps you could adopt a sceptical view to your understanding?

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 1:21 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

I've had a quick read of the Wiki entry on Slovakia and WW2. They did become part of the Axis powers, as you say, but later in the war things dramatically changed with the Slovak National Uprising, a partly successful `resistance movement to fight German occupation. But even having read the article, I still have to sort out the confusion. But that doesn't mean, 70 years later, that Slovak still wish to fight Russia on any basis, and they haven't supported any arms supplies to Ukraine.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 1:33 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

.. that Slovak still wish to fight Russia on any basis, and they haven't supported any arms supplies to Ukraine.

Of course I would not suggest that. I just positied a historical record. Did you find out how many Slovakian divisions were at Stalingrad?

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 8:00 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

I've tried to find out, but can't so far. That they were part of the Axis enemy of Russia is no doubt, but so was Finland. Finland is now part of NATO. I think Finland is stupid for joining and Slovakia would be sensible in keeping both the West and Russia at arms length. The young people's desire to join the EU is understandable, but it is an organisation that has become militarily involved and economically fracturing.

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by Cockneymystic <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Cockneymystic' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 8:41 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

On the divisions at Stalingrad...I'm not sure what your point is T. Could you explain?

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 2:43 pm, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

On the divisions at Stalingrad...I'm not sure what your point is T. Could you explain?

It cropped up at the beginning of this thread, second line:

https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/msg/1715990231.html

Slovaks were part of the Axis in the WW2 and ended up on the other side of the Iron Curtain after the war. Similar to Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia and so on. The litmus test being that all these countries sent their military units to Stalingrad during nazi Barbarossa invasion. One reason for USSR creating cordon sanitaire (Eastern block) on it's periphery in 1945 imo. Also noting they all joined NATO thereafter. Part reference to attempted assassination of Fico.

Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa

Posted by Ian M <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ian+M' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 7:49 pm, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Brief sketch on wiki here fyi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_Expeditionary_Army_Group

The single reference is to the Slovakia chapter in 'Joining Hitler's Crusade: European Nations and the Invasion of the Soviet Union, 1941' by Jan Rychlík. I tracked down the doi number, unlocked on sci-hub here if you fancy a concise 27 page read on the role of Slovakia in WW2 (army section starts from p.12): https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.1017/9781108225281.006

Briefly, it looks like the Slovak division involved in the German advance went south in the attempt to occupy the oil fields in the Caucasus - Group B (Group A went for Stalingrad). A lot of the named towns sound familiar: Vinnitsia, Kiev, Lvov, Kharkov, Rostov. They were caught by the Russian counter-offensive in Melitopol where lots of them refused to fight and were taken prisoner (morale undermined by the cold winter and partly not wanting to fight for the Germans any more). A 'security' division stayed in northern Ukraine where they were supposed to do a 'cleanup' operation against partisans. Some punitive massacres but other instances of defections and collaboration with pro-soviet forces, the author says they didn't have much involvement with the UPA 'nationalists'. Some anti-Jewish abuses, thefts and murders, and the right wing government of the supposedly independent Slovak government (in fact dominated by Germany) collaborated with the final solution.

Interesting history, thanks T for the prompt to look into it.

I

Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously
http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/

Correction: Group A for Caucasus; Group B for Stalingrad

Posted by Ian M <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ian+M' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 8:03 pm, in reply to "Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue#Splitting_of_Army_Group_South

Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously
http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/

Nice one. Thank you ..

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 10:41 pm, in reply to "Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa"

I never got around to looking it up and just had a rough outline from reading around the subject over time.

Just started reading the extract you tracked down. Looks very interesting. Must liberate the book itself at some point ..

Returning favour ..

Posted by t <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=TomskiD' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 11:19 pm, in reply to "Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa"

Just tracked down the book. It's in fact by David Stahel:

Just click the link and then click GET (near the top of page):

https://library.lol/main/8B271F5F3695C4ECDF84C19F8B69624D

Re: Returning favour ..

Posted by Ian M <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Ian+M' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 11:46 pm, in reply to "Returning favour .."

'ta, might have a look at some of the other chapters. Sorry, yes, Rychlík authored the Slovakia chapter, Stahel I guess compiled it all together.

cheers,
I

Tell your story; Ask a question; Interpret generously
http://storybythethroat.wordpress.com/tell-ask-listen/

Re: Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 11:43 pm, in reply to "Slovakian military role in Operation Barbarossa"

"Joining Hitler's Crusade: European Nations and the Invasion of the Soviet Union, 1941" (2017) by David Stahel chapter 4 was written by Rychlik.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by Keith-264 <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=Keith-264' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 10:00 am, in reply to "A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

I don't know if there was a hidden hand in the assassination attempt but there are plenty of visible hands trying to exploit it.

The last working-class hero in England.

Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016
Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018
Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021

Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies

Posted by John Monro <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=John+Monro' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 10:16 am, in reply to "Re: A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

Well, you're right there. Both sides undoubtedly and what interference from outside Slovakia?

Back in 2014, the EU insisted Ukraine must choose between 'Europe' and Russia

Posted by SueC <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/info/user=SueC' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2024, 4:55 pm, in reply to "A typical example of the "debate" around geopolitics now - the deliberate fracturing of societies"

In 2014, at the time of the Maiden, it was the EU who presented Ukraine with the binary choice of 'Europe' or Russia with the EU's 'Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Treaty' - the implementation of which would have bankrupt the country. This insistence of Brussels and the West generally that this is a binary choice is a cause of much of the present Ukrainian disaster. It was the ever-pragmatic Putin who said to Brussels "look, Ukraine would benefit from good relations with us and you, so what's the problem?'

I did a bit of research at the time into Ukraine's relationship with the EU and the talks about the possibility of joining the bloc and found several documents where various Ukrainian ministers in different governments years before the Maiden said while they wanted a 'European' future, the costs were simply unaffordable
Does anyone think the EU really doesn't know this as it keeps dangling the prospect of joining before Ukraine?

As an aside, John, this is why many of us supported Brexit - it has nothing to do with a supposed dislike of Europe and everything to do with observing that many of Brussels' policies are harmful to the countries they supposedly serve.

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