Eli Hassel tries to debate Norman Finkelstein on War in Israel
Posted by RaskolnikovX on December 18, 2024, 1:06 pm
It doesn't go well.
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...no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
The title was from Hassel's channel; Israel meaning Gaza
or some other zionist nonsense....no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
Re: Eli Hassel tries to debate Norman Finkelstein on War in Israel
I’m not ready to accept Norman’s theory that on Oct 7, Palestinians killed as many Israelis as they could in order to destroy those who have made them suffer so much for so long.
I think Oct 7 was a military operation that went horribly wrong because the border wasn’t defended and the music festival was between the border and the Israeli military base for Gaza control operations. I don’t think the festival was part of the plan because it wasn’t originally supposed to be in that location and it was held over for an extra day. I think that Palestinian civilians were able to stream through the border and some of them might have gone crazy with hatred. Also, Israel was responsible for many of the casualties.
Interested to hear what others think.
Re: Eli Hassel tries to debate Norman Finkelstein on War in Israel
I think that it was a disciplined military operation that went as well as could be expected. Most of the people killed by the Palestinians were combatants and the prisoners who were killed by the zionazis.The last working-class hero in England.
Clio the cat, ? July 1997 - 1 May 2016 Kira the cat, ? ? 2010 - 3 August 2018 Jasper the Ruffian cat ? ? ? - 4 November 2021
Re: Eli Hassel tries to debate Norman Finkelstein on War in Israel
"I’m not ready to accept Norman’s theory that on Oct 7, Palestinians killed as many Israelis as they could in order to destroy those who have made them suffer so much for so long..."
I was puzzled by him on that. It's always been my understanding that this was essentially a hostage raid: that those taken were to be exchanged for those hostages Israel held in so-called "Administrative detention. " Supporting this it's pretty obvious that the majority of the dead were already being transported in cars when the Israeli army helicopters were given orders to pound every vehicle in sight with cannon and "hellfire" missi!es...which they did before returning to base to re-arm and do it all again.
"Palestinian civilians were able to stream through the border and some of them might have gone crazy with hatred..."
I agree. It seemed to me that the unfortunate parading of the body of Shani Louk: the tattoo artist killed at some point in the outbreak, to be displayed in the back of a pick up truck was part of such irregular individual action. We do not know if the perpetrators had themselves suffered From Israeli "mowing the lawn" mass murders in previous years, but it was an own goal of huge magnitude. - From the point when that went viral the very idea that there could be a hostage deal was gone.
Also, Hamas agreed to return all the hostages on Oct 8 if Israel agreed not to invade Gaza.
...about getting his ass handed to him over and over again. It's pretty embarrassing, I'd say, repeating the same question when it has been fully answered but you just don't like the answer.
Re: Also, Hamas agreed to return all the hostages on Oct 8 if Israel agreed not to invade Gaza.
Yes. I thought it had been established that the rave was a surprise to some extent (although that in itself suggests they were operating in the dark, i.e. without any on the ground intel from inside the areas they would attack) and the original intent was to attack military bases and seize hostages and that's what the actual Hamas fighters were doing. The attacks on military bases are memory holed and almost never mentioned in the msm; it's always "the music festival" i.e. the rave but music festival makes it sound nicer and cleaner, and then the kibbutz attacks (where almost all deaths were down to the IOF).
I also think the "second wave" of people crossing the border who weren't involved in the operation and who just vented their fury in violence was also fairly established. I think Norman frames it like that as it ties in with his comparison to the Nat Turner slave rebellion that he uses all the time.
The debate on how many casualties the apartheid state was responsible for seems to have ended but it's surely several hundred of the 1100 deaths. This has been documented by many independent sources, and many sources in the apartheid state, on many occasions and in some considerable detail and the corporate media have resolutely ignored it. The official count seems to have been somewhat memory holed too but the corporate media keep using the inflated 1800/1600 range because that's what they do and they also usually present that as all civilian rather than about 40%-60% military/police.
Almost all of the deaths in the kibbutzes were most likely caused by fire from the IOF tanks/gunships and all the incinerated cars were done by IOF Apaches so that's a large portion of the casualties right away. Also there were reports in the media over there where various IOF members reported taking out cars/groups heading for the border with hostages in line with the "mass Hannibal" directive that was in place (as also reported widely in the apartheid state but not so much in the western media).
That's roughly how I thought the reporting had left things up to now which seems to concur with how you saw it....no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party...So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
on December 18, 2024, 1:06 pm