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Citroen Saxo 1.1 2001 (X) HFX - Jerking at low speed and at certain throttle positions #

Posted by jamie lambert on December 2, 2008, 10:06 pm
Message modified by board administrator January 8, 2009, 7:50 am

Hi everybody
Have the above vehicle in at the mo. Customer complained of jurking at low speed and certain throttle positions. Using dealer tool fault coded and no fault codes, looked in live data and the thing that stood out was the throttle sensor voltage is 0 volts no matter where the throttle is. Checked voltage at the sensor plug with it disconnected term 1 and 3 showing 5v, plugged it back on and back probed still 5v. Checked term 2 signal wire and 0v, changed sensor for known good one and still the same. Could there be a break in the wire or possibly an ecu fault, had another saxo in today checked that in live data and thats fine reading 0.5v at idle and 4.5v full throttle. Any info would be most helpful.

Regards Jamie

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Matt Elliott <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1416' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 2, 2008, 11:38 pm, in reply to "citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Mattew Elliott

Haven't these got a bosch idle solenoid/stepper motor on injector body(black unit held on with torx bolts) had one the other causing same faults as you discribe. About £120 from citroen about 60 quid from bosch stockist I game them number off part.

hth
Matt

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Peter Rainsley <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5418' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 4, 2008, 6:07 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Rainsley

Jamie, test the system, not the part. Backpinning, you should have 5v feed from the ecu and ground via the ecu. The third pin will be the output signal to the ecu, or the 0.5v to 4.5v you see in live data. If you have 5v on the ground pin, it is open circuit!
HTH,
Peter

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Mark Storey <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5564' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 6, 2008, 12:24 pm, in reply to "citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"

Hi Jamie,

Replace the idle control valve. This should be a small 4 pin item, not the Bosch stepper type one.
GSF part number is N18712. I retailed it at £76 in 2005.
Hth
Mark

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by jamie lambert <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1460' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 15, 2008, 11:44 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Jamie Lambert

Hi everybody
Thanks for all your replies, sorry i haven't replied myself haven't been online for a while. Mark tried an idle control valve but no different. Peter checked sensor by backprobing supply voltage 5 v earth is good and signal wire nothing. Tried another sensor but still the same, think it must have a fault in the e.c.u.

Regards Jamie

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by jamie lambert <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1460' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2008, 6:32 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Jamie Lambert

Hi all
Sent ecu for testing came back with no fault found Does anybody know if there should be a voltage reading for the throttle sensor in live data or do some of these vehicles not bother with it? Backprobing at the ecu multi plug on signal wire and there is 0.7 volts no throtle and 4.5 volts full throttle so thats all good but in live data 0 volts! Any help would be gratefull dont know where else to go

Regards Jamie

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2008, 7:45 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Jamie,

You seem to have the correct voltages on the TPS wiring, but I reckon it needs to be scoped across the whole rev range for any glitches or interferrence. Could be done with a digital multimeter but you need to watch very closely. If that is ok, then the snatching could be an HT problem but I assume those basic checks are Ok. Assume the emissions are OK - not too lean?

Regards

Pete M

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by jim croft <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5216' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2008, 9:09 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Jim Croft

What scanner are you using , my solus gives some rubbish live data on peugeot/citroen stuff
merry xmas
Jim

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Phil Dunmore <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5515' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2008, 10:06 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Philip Dunmore

Jamie, in your first post you mention dealer tool. On Lexia there is a list of tech bulletins(they call them something else which I can't remember at the moment) arond 400 items. I have scanned through them in the past, sure there are quite a few about throttle and running issues with these engines.

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by jamie lambert <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1460' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 28, 2008, 12:35 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Jamie Lambert

Hi all
Pete i scoped the tps using my pms 100 there is a pot test which you can do all looks fine. To be honest i havn't really checked ignition side of it, i got side track about the 0 volts in live data. Also ive noticed that the injection duration is 0 ms until you get pretty much down the throttle range. Which make of plugs do these vehicles like or doesnt it matter on these, think i'll change the coil rail and the plugs. Hi phil i will also have a scan through the lexia software as well.

Regards Jamie

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 28, 2008, 5:40 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Jamie,

My ACR4 sometimes give wrong or impossible readings and have to get the old multimeter out to verify the true readings. The injector duration of 0 ms is obviously false because the vehicle will not run unless you are testing the TPS on closed throttle when you will get a momentary cut off. You seem to have tested the readings at the ECU and proved the TPS circuit is ok. I am not one of those who subscribe to the idea that a car will mis-behave on a certain make of plug unless it is the old Split-fire plugs that were around a few years ago! I prefer NGK then Bosch and if I found a car with a problem like yours with Champions in, they would be the first thing to ditch (un-reliable). Generally find that problems with coil packs become noticeable under load which does not apply in your case. Emission figures would be interesting and whether the fault appears on engine cold.

Regards

Pete M

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Michael Whitworth <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5568' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 29, 2008, 2:17 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Pete,

>>>>I am not one of those who subscribe to the idea that a car will mis-behave on a certain make of plug unless it is the old Split-fire plugs that were around a few years ago! I prefer NGK then Bosch and if I found a car with a problem like yours with Champions in, they would be the first thing to ditch (un-reliable).<<<<

Interesting comments if not rather contradictory, Unless the certain make in question is NGK!

I have no doubt in my mind that NGK have had problems with their spark plugs emmitting excessive RFi, this problems seems to be more prevailant on PSA, Renault and Fiat cars. I have wasted many Hrs on problem cars in the past to end up fixing with a set of FR7DC plugs or +8s as they seem to call them now. Even where the correct part no as listed in the latest NGK catalogue of the time is already fitted to the vehicle.

If you don't believe me just ask tony Sefton!!!

.

Mike

M.O.M. Miserable Old Manc

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Milan <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5374' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 29, 2008, 9:11 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Milan Lazarevic

Second that Mike, i don't use any NGK's on any French and Fiats, vary rarely use them, always Bosch in the French, Tony will definitely agree

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 30, 2008, 6:28 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Mutlow

Hi all,

Thought my comment on plugs would provoke a reaction. Cannot see why my comments are contradictory. When I mention a certain make of plug, I have no particular brand in mind. Speaking and listening to various techies, they will not use "this" or "that" plug because they have had some issue with them. NGK is not one of those brands, in fact I have yet to have a problem with them or Bosch. However, I take on board what has been said for future reference although I note that Mike says "I have no doubt in my mind that NGK have had problems...". Does this mean they are OK now?

Regards

Pete M

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 30, 2008, 7:14 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Warman - Administrator

Hi Pete

Few years back i had problem with NGK and a Renault dealer that cost my customer £1700:00. I will keep the story brief

Renault Laguna 1998 3.0 24v Auto. My customers works in Croydon so to save time he took it to a Renault dealer just down the road from his work.

The service was done, then a few weeks later the gearbox kept changing up and down gears with a bang and the on board computer told him to take it to his nearest dealer. The Renault dealer had it a few days and told him the Auto Box was at fault and required replacing. I recommended an auto specialist who replaced the box at a total cost of £1700:00

Customer had the car back and within a week it was doing it again, i had the car in an tried to sort it out with the auto box company, they had it back and confirmed the auto box was working ok

I had the car back for a couple of weeks driving it around, the problem occurred a couple of times

Around this time Tony Sefton was voicing his opinion on NGK's and Renaults

So as a last resort i took out the plugs (not easy) and low and behold it was fitted with NGK's which was odd as there is a sticker on the slam panel with BOSCH plug number only. I ordered new genuine plugs from Renault, they came in Renault boxes but when i opened them up they were NGK's

I inquired with Renault and they told me they are now using NGK plugs but box them as Renault. I sent them all back and fitted the correct BOSCH plugs.........the fault never returned

. The Auto box ECU is bolted close to the front plugs on the bulkhead

Renault would not admit to any miss-diagnosis, after many letters he never got a penny back, that dealer has now gone bust

Peter

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Nigel Bennett <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5463' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 30, 2008, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"

Read this.

Link: Plugs

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 30, 2008, 9:02 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Peter Mutlow

Hi all.

Very interesting reading from Milan, Pete and Nigel about NGK plugs. I can see why you baulk from using them with that horror story about the Renault. Note though that these stories emanate from a few years ago and maybe (hopefully) they are no longer an issue. I do remember somewhile back, a few batches from my supplier were not made in Japan (can't remember where) and had a gold colour base - not silver. They did not cause a problem but I did think about whether they would be up to scratch. Thinking about it - I believe they were made in France! Anyway thanks for the info and will watch out in future. Apologies to Jamie for diverting your thread.

Regards

Pete M

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 30, 2008, 10:26 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"

I used to be sceptical about the advice given about using genuine or OE spec spark plugs until a couple of years ago, when I experienced the most bizarre faults on a Renault. (see link below).

Trust me when I say, that if you were stood next to a bloke in the pub, explaining the faults that I had experienced, you would have been doing the Gareth Hunt "Nescafé Hand Shuffle" You literally wouldn’t believe it!

http://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/msg/archive/1154378755.html

Never underestimate the humble spark plug!

Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code

Posted by jamie lambert <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1460' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 31, 2008, 12:06 am, in reply to "Re: citroen saxo x reg 1.1 hfx eng code"
Jamie Lambert

Hi all
Pete no need to apologize, its very interesting. I think i need to get the vehicle back in and change the plugs anyway just to eliminate them. Just going back to the bosch spark plugs. I put some in a renault clio 1.2 16v 52 reg automatic when i serviced it. Few weeks later it kept going into limp home, the gearbox would go into manual and it would run like shite. It went to the dealers they renewed the plugs which were champion and it was fine ever since. So i never fit bosch to renaults anymore, fit loads of bosch plugs to renaults before that and had no problem.

Regards Jamie

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