Petrol Diagnostics

Post a Response

Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 - Fixed #

Posted by Craig Hewison on December 10, 2012, 9:23 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2009
Engine Size and Code *: 1.0
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Launch
( Optional) Fault Codes: P0300 & P0302

Hi guys, I might be a bit vague on details here but I can post them tomorrow if you feel it necessary!?!

So the mrs rings me at 4pm today because a light has come on the dash, P0300 & P0302. Due to the time i bviously havent had chance to have a good look at it yet but im after a bit of theory help if poss because google is confusing me. Plugs look good, and injectors scope ok, live data appears ok but we've got misfire counts on every cylinder, particularly cyl3!! Codes clear but soon return when running!

This is fitted with 3-wire cop's; now my understanding is that we have a nbv feed, a ground and a 5v pulse from ECU?!? Bear in mind that the batt voltage is 14v I have a 12.7v feed, good ground and a 4.3v pulse; unplugged there is nothing down any wire? Primary currant reaches 9.8amps across all three cylinders and I swapped coils round to see if the p302 moves and it does not! This is as far as I've got, now my suspicion is a bad CPU earth? However, as I have very little experience with these 3 wire beasties I thought I'd do a bit of googling and see what the deal is, my confusion comes because on example waveforms posted online they all show a pulse of different voltages, some are 5v, some are 4?, there are even some at 3????

Could anybody please inform me or point me in the direction of a pdf, video or web page etc where I can see what Im meant to be looking at please?

Ps a wiring diagram would be useful too if anybody has one? Reg is B3 EVW I can post VIN tomoz if necessary?

Thanks
Craig

Re: Smart four two

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2012, 10:20 pm, in reply to "Smart four two "

Hi Craig

Is the car actually mis-firing, when the misfires are counting up?

Is the vehicle displaying any drivability issues.

It seems that the COP transistors are recieving the turn on signal from the ECU and the primary is being charged.

What is the cut off time on the primary current ramp?

Check the tail pipe emissions to try and get an insight on what kind of misfire it is.

Have you got any means of scoping the secondary?

Don't forget fuel pressure and EGR.

EDIT.
Also, it looks like the valve clearences are adjustable

HTH
James

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 10, 2012, 11:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "

Thanks jim, I'd not considered valve clearances so I will definitely bear that in mind. You reckon the coils are good then?

Drivability issues? Misfire present? Hahahahaha you've not drove one of these things before then yeah? They're bloody awfull!!!!! Seriously tho, there is a miss yes, Mrs says its drives ok but I haven't tried it myself so wouldn't guarantee it! I will check the various other possibilities tomorrow, am interested to check a few other of the 5v feeds too to see what they're like!

Thanks again buddy!
Craig

Re: Smart four two

Craig

You would have to check seconary output to varify the coil condition. (maybe with a spark tester and COP extension)

How do the burn times compare across the cylinders (in the primary)

If the coil cut off time is efficiant and the current ramp is a 'Ramp' I would say that you have validated the primary drive, looking at your primary current. Including the voltage drop in the primary circuit.

I would definatley be checking the exhaust emissions first though

James

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Chris Angus <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5111' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2012, 11:03 am, in reply to "Smart four two "

Craig, easiest way of checking coils is to just put your scope probe on the ignition coil, test through induction. you just need to set your volts scale right and you will get a pattern of secondary.

Chris

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Peter Lomas <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5466' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2012, 4:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "
Peter Lomas

Hi Craig
Did one a while back it had jumped timing
might be worth checking
Regards Peter

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2012, 7:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "

VIN: WME4513802K306976

Right then boys, I've managed to have a play today and I so can talk to you a bit more clearly. The misfire is present when the engine is hot, a cylinder drop test confirms its definitely cyl2 that is not contributing. Despite not being able to gather much info regarding 3-wire cop I've eliminated this problem by switching coils round with other cylinders and the fault remains on cyl2, I also did this with the injectors with the same result. Here is a link to my COP waveform anyway just incase, http://www.mediafire.com/view/?faynnc1x0d2im49

I was surprised to see very low HCs on an emission test, 9ppm, when either cyl2 coil or injector unplugged this drops to 0ppm. My assumption with this is there may be partial combustion and the rest of the HCs are being burnt in the hot cat? When i unplug the coil/injector the ECU recognises it and shuts the cylinder down and therefore lowering the HCs??

I've done a smoke test and sprayed brake cleaner around the inlet manifold but found no leak; fuel pressure is a steady 3.2bar at all times including WOT. My suspicions are now with compression but its awkward to get my gauge in there, I will try again tomorrow and failing that i'll have to settle for relative compression. Valve clearances are high on my list now as they are due to be checked at 62500miles according to Autodata and the vehicle is currently at 51000miles. I did consider a timing issue but then Why would it give me a dead cylinder? Maybe the the P0300 is due to timing and P0302 to valve clearances and the two faults together are the issue?? Here is my CamVCrank, hopefully somebody (Peter

) can compare it to a known good please? http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?545bcygkccdycy9

Thanks again
Craig

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2012, 7:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "
Carl Ford

Be a nice time for the WPS

Regards
Carl

Re: Smart four two

I am hearing you Carl

Craig
I can come to yours one night this week if you want.

I Can't tomorrow though, I am going to look at one of those 'American Pie' Hummer stretch limo's with a misfire, after work

Let me know pal

James

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2012, 9:06 am, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "

Thanks a lot matey! Ill check valve clearances today and if that fails ill give u a shout thanks!

American pie? That would be Simon then would it? He fell out with me when I failed his range rover on its MOT, because it was my fault his handbrake didn't work wasn't it !!! Lol

Thanks again bud
Craig

Re: Smart four two

I'm not sure what the guys name is, Im helping a local Auto Electrician out.

'because it was my fault his handbrake didn't work wasn't it !!! Lol'

Yeah, its amazing some of the reasons people decide to fall out with you isn't it.

Thanks for the heads up on 'Simon'

This limo has had everything change including, removal of the cylinder heads for this mis-fire before he has asked for outside help

I am not one to judge people but it is nice to get a mental picture of what type of guy he might be.

Good luck with the Smart

James

Re: Smart four two

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2012, 10:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two "

Ok so this is down on compression! I couldn't get my compression tester in due to limited space and smaller spark plug hole! I did a relative compression test cold and the low compression was immediately apparent, James came round with his WPS beast and we watched cyl2 drop from 100psi down to 63psi over period of about 10mins whilst cyl 1 remained stationary! I have waveforms and will post them tomorrow!

Having made a few enquiries it would appear that these are well known for engine trouble, one response was "you're lucky to get 70k miles outta one those" and another "if u see one with 100k on it ill bet my house that its on its second engine and getting ready for a third"!! Wish I'd known all this before we bought it!!

Heyho! Engine coming out tomoz so I will let u know how I get on!!

Keep smiling!!
Craig

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Hi Carl

I have emailed you the captures of the above vehicle so you can have a look

Cheers
James

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2012, 1:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"

Sorry for the delay but I've had a couple of late nights stripping this engine down and then had guests over the weekend!

Below are the relative compression captures both cold and hot and you can definitely see the drop in relation with temperature. James' WPS confirmed the actual pressure readings the next night!

COLD

HOT

I set about stripping the engine down and revealed a burnt & cracked exhaust valve in cylinder 2!!

Some of the WPS captures we took didn't make much sense so we will redo them when this is reassembled and do some comparisons to hopefully shed some light!

Thanks again for everybody's help
Craig

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Craig
Cool

Me and Carl have been mind numbingly analysing the captures with the FLS in the dipstick tube.

Trying to prove or disprove the compression leak being caused by the Piston Rings not sealing

I have just sent Carl an email of the only theory I have been happy with, proving that the piston rings are not the cause of the compression leak to see what he thinks.

Thanks to your picture I can now carry on with this thought process and take a closer look closer at the WPS in cylinder captures.

Analysing the captures for a 3 cylinder engine proves to be alot more difficult than a 4 cylinder.

I am happy you found something with the Smart

'we will redo them when this is reassembled and do some comparisons to hopefully shed some light!'

That would be great

It has been mentioned, I should be invited to your christmas doo, I spend so much time at yours LOL

cheers James

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 17, 2012, 6:59 am, in reply to "Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"

Haha what Xmas doo!!! But you might be right tho James! Ill have a word with my dad n see if we can organise some festive dancing girls to walk up and down on the 4post ramp and we can get wasted off antifreeze and 5-30 semi synthetic lol

Craig

Fixed #

Posted by Craig Hewison on January 4, 2013, 9:12 pm, in reply to "Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"
Message modified by board administrator January 9, 2013, 4:21 pm

Right then boys and girls, sorry for the late reply but it has been xmas and i got the lurgy etc lol

With a new valve and a full set of guides as they were apparently "well and trully b***loxed", all is well again in my little world!

Thanks again for everybody's help and here is a pic of the relative compression as it stands now!

Thanks again
Craig

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 4, 2013, 9:14 pm, in reply to "Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"

P.S. As for why cylinder 3 had the greater misfire counts?, the inlet gasket was split!!

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 5, 2013, 2:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"
James Eardley

Hi Craig

Glad you got it sorted

Any chance I can stick my pipe in your dip stick for 2 mins

LOL, when is it is convenient for you pal?

cheers
James

Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 5, 2013, 11:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Smart four two 1.0 2009 - MIL on, codes P0300 & P0302 #"

Do what!?! I think I better consult my mrs about this........ To see when I can borrow her car lol

I'll give you a bell ASAP

Thanks
Craig

« Back to index

[ Petrol Diagnostics ]