Where do you get the idea that it's less productive, John? Not what the veteran, highly-skilled Archived Message Posted by Rhisiart Gwilym on February 23, 2019, 9:51 pm, in reply to "Re: And productivity really isn't a problem. Both forest-permaculture and urban ag. can OUTPERFORM " deeply-insightful practitioners say. People like Mark Shepard and Martin Crawford. Or Bill Mollison and Geoff Lawton for that matter. This is when the reckoning is made properly: How much of the annual insolation energy falling on your forest is caught and stored by the sum total of its lifeforms? How much of that total capture is available to sustainable harvesting for human use - in all the multitudinous forms in which it comes? A popular phrase is food, fuel and fibre; how much of all that, aggregated, can be harvested repeatedly? It's that aggregate productivity that gives the lie to the 'less productive' canard. It isn't, even when it's competing with fossil-hydrocarbon subsidised industagri! And how much longer is that horrendously energy-negative subsidy lunacy - sic! demanding more energy input than it outputs, ffs! - going to be possible anyway...? You're quite right that hom sap is going to have to get used to demanding less per capita from the Earth's life-systems. But that's going to be taken care of by the sustained global human population decline - away from the current temporary overshoot situation and back into balance - that appears to be scheduled, by Mam Gaia's multiple homeostasis-re-establishing mechanisms, for the middle decades of this century; probably with a tail-off running into the next century. Without any voluntary input needed from us; indeed, without any option: an automatic homeostatic correction process that has been at work on this planet for several billion years already, and has never failed yet to rebalance the life-web eventually. Of course, several generations of us will have to suffer through this adjustment process before it's complete. But that's the payback you get when you're technically intelligent enough to see what's happening and what's needed to correct it in good time, but you just can't be arsed, as a species, to do the obvious. Message Thread: Europe can go organic - mack February 23, 2019, 2:01 am And productivity really isn't a problem. Both forest-permaculture and urban ag. can OUTPERFORM - Rhisiart Gwilym February 23, 2019, 8:40 am Re: And productivity really isn't a problem. Both forest-permaculture and urban ag. can OUTPERFORM - John Monro February 23, 2019, 6:40 pm Where do you get the idea that it's less productive, John? Not what the veteran, highly-skilled - Rhisiart Gwilym February 23, 2019, 9:51 pm Re: And productivity really isn't a problem. Both forest-permaculture and urban ag. can OUTPERFORM - mack February 24, 2019, 4:27 am Really interesting link. Thanks for posting. nm - Bluefool February 25, 2019, 9:37 am   Searching