Posted by Tom Williams on January 9, 2009, 1:52 pm Message modified by board administrator January 19, 2009, 8:42 am
Hi,
We have been repeatedly warned about the possibility of a 'Super Complaint'. I've never found anyone to explain what exactly it is. Presumably,it requires a complainer and a complainee. Who are these two parties? I don't see this government becoming involved. Comprehension of the finance and commercial world seems to completely elude them.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Peter Warman on January 9, 2009, 3:25 pm, in reply to "Super Complaint?" Peter Warman - Administrator
THE car repair industry has been threatened with a “supercomplaint” by the National Consumer Council over “shoddy service and rip-off charges”. With its sister Scottish and Welsh councils, the council has written to the trade bodies representing the vehicle repair and service industry accusing them of failing to deal with customers’ problems.
The three consumer councils say that the industry is failing to regulate itself effectively despite 11 attempts to raise standards during the past 30 years. Deirdre Hutton, the NCC’s chairwoman, said the only way forward might be to issue a super-complaint, which is allowed under the 2002 Enterprise Act if consumers’ interests are being “significantly harmed”.
The council submitted its first super-complaint — on home credit — to the Office of Fair Trading in June 2004. The home credit industry is now being investigated by the Competition Commission.
Ms Hutton said: “Years of inaction defy the harm this sector inflicts on consumers. Unless the (car repair and servicing) industry rises to our challenge and gets serious about addressing the problems consumers suffer, a super-complaint may be the only way forward. Owning and running a car is expensive — the equivalent of about a third of the purchase price goes on servicing and repairs during its lifetime. Most consumers aren’t car mechanics. They don’t know what needs doing to their car, whether it’s been done properly or whether they’ve got value for money. What’s more, shoddy repairs can put consumers and their families at risk of serious injury or death.”
The council said every “mystery shopping” exercise on car repair and servicing businesses proved that people were getting a bad deal. Failures include missed faults, work done unnecessarily (and sometimes without approval), charges for work that had not been done, work done badly, poor customer care and industry standards not complied with. Women can be disadvantaged when it comes to assessing work on their cars, the council said.
The council has written to the industry demanding an urgent meeting and has copied the letter to Government ministers and Sir John Vickers, chairman of the Office of Fair Trading.
The industry bodies to which the council has written include the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders and the Retail Motor Industry Federation.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Tom Yates on January 9, 2009, 9:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Tom Yates
Thats OK with credit card companies banks and the likes, but how will they enforce Joe blogs in his back garden, and all the other people that come to this country and set up their little back street garage, then disappear after two or three years, or move onto a different area, it will never happen
Tom
Re: Super Complaint? ***** Star Post ****
Posted by Tony Sefton on January 9, 2009, 10:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Message modified by board administrator January 10, 2009, 12:41 pm
It would be a lot easier to understand what all this is about if :-
They could explain what is a rip off. (i,e would it be £1200 that a Main Dealer charges to locate and rectify one bad connnection as it took them 12 hours to find it. ) ???
what is a reasonable charge, ??? ( £40 per hour or less that some independents charge or around £100 + per hour that some main dealers charge )
What is Classed as shoddy work. ??? ( A repair to a component thats not quite as good as it ought to be although perfectly safe as the customer doesn't have the money to spend on his car so he has asked for a temporary repair to keep his car running untill he can afford to do the job properly ) . ??
Whats wrong with Any Customer that has a Complaint going to the Trading Standards. and them passing it on to the office of Fair trading / government body etc. ?? Between them instead of Harrasing Genuine Honest Reputable garages, They would be concentrating on sorting out the Dodgy Garages and Get them Fined and then eventually shut down after a few complaints. ???
( Ohh yeah that would be expensive and they need some mugs to pay for it so they will pass the buck onto the reputable garages ). ??
We looked at a Van for a Company that sent it to the Main Dealer, The Dealers had the van for 3 weeks and estimated £1800 to repair the immobiliser, We took the job on and found the fault in 15 minutes, Repaired a broken wire and had the vehicle back on the road within a couple of hours of it coming in. ( and Foolishly charged around 1 hours labour )
Where would something like this come into the equation. ?? Would it be classed as Shoddy work, Incompetence, Rip off. ?? ( or non as they didn't get the job and if they had, how would the customer have known whether it was a fair price or not or if the work carried out was necessary. ??? )
( And yes, This would be one of the first Companies to sign up to the CODE )
What about the Faulty Components that fail Prematurely and the Dealers and Vehicle manufacturers Deny any knowledge that there may be a Manufacturing problem untill watchdog gets hold of it. ?? ( But if we Sold a part and it fails, We would be for the High jump even though the part was bought in good faith from a large supplier )
What about the diagnostic equipment that we all buy that plugs in and gives the wrong information making jobs take longer than they should. ?? Who pays for the wasted time and sometimes wrongly diagnosed parts. ??
If they want to sort this Automotive mess out, I think they need to start off by making Manufacturers responsible for the unreliable crap that they sell. ( ohh Sorry, they won't have the balls for to do that so pick on the independents )
Why Put more Expense, pressure, Paperwork and wasted time onto honourable garages that are doing their best to look after their customers and their vehicles. ??
I am 100% for doing the job properly, not ripping customers off, getting decent training, etc. But not for paying for a load of people that have never done the job, know very little about the job, to sit in an office and dictate to people as to what they should do and when and to say what was or wasn't a fair price for a job. ??
Can Someone from the "CODE" Tell me how much it will cost to Repair an immobiliser fault on a Citroen picasso. ??? ( what is fair ) How long should it take. ?? How much should it cost. ???
OR. How much will it cost to repair a list of faults on a Merecedes or a BMW. ?? All We can do is advise the customer that it needs so many hours to start with and see how the job goes Then hopefully price up the parts and get an idea of how much extra labour will be involved to do the work required when we find out what it needs.
If A Customer had a Job like this done, After giving his approval and then afterwards decided that it sounded too expensive and Put a Complaint in, How would anyone Prove how much the job should have cost or how long it should have taken. ??
what about companies that give employees bonus's to sell parts, ?? ( which then get sold even when not required just to get the staff a decent wage ) Yes, These include Big Companies with Big Reputations Trying to make Big Profits.
There is a lot more to this job than how much a service should have cost or an oil and filter change. ??
Tony.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Mark Mcgrath on January 9, 2009, 11:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Mark McGrath
"The council said every “mystery shopping” exercise on car repair and servicing businesses proved that people were getting a bad deal"
The implication of that is that a very high proportion of us are bad boys With that sort of bad press we will always be on the losing side
Dont think any sort of scheme will erase that ,its basically down to money A large proportion of the great motoring public detest spending money on vehicles,and will always complain of being ripped off
Joe Bloggs on the minimum wage gets a bill for £100 to get his banger through the test,all his lager and football moneys gone,so we are ripoff merchants
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Steve Nicholas on January 10, 2009, 2:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Stephen Nicholas
Well said everybody, especially Tony...a lot of thought went in to your "Star Post" and I think you covered the points well.
As long as the general perception is that our job is quite simple really, after all, we only have to plug a car in these days and the magic kit tells us exactly what is wrong, then our realistic prices are going to seem rip-off to a lot of people.
2009 will be very interesting, in the sense of the Chinese rejoinder, "May you live to see interesting times".
Regards,
Steve
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Tom Williams on January 10, 2009, 4:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Tom Williams
Hi,
Well that told me! At least I know what it is now. I think that perhaps there are good grounds for a super complaint against the banking industry and it's regulatory bodies. They have certainly not been competent.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by martin young on January 10, 2009, 5:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Martin Young
sir sefton you have outdone yourself what a good post martin
Tony what a fantastic post! I would love you to send a copy of it to the National Consumer Council and see how they reply to an honest guy trying to make an honest living. You have hit so many "Real points" I would love to see how they reply to you.
Best wishes
John Wallis
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Paul Foster on January 12, 2009, 9:49 am, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?"
Ditto!
Tony - Have you considered running for Government! If you did you may very well be the only person in parliament who lives in the real world!!
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Colin Calder on January 12, 2009, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Colin Calder
Just before Christmas, local taxi driver came in (in a big rush) with late model Citroen Picasso Turbo Diesel. Complaint of lack of power. Low mileage vehc: all looked OK and no fault codes. Decided to check air cleaner, (back of engine) Blocked SOLID. Checked cabin filter, blocked solid. Rang customer, said needs service. Customer said 'go ahead'. Carried out service, drove like a dream but noticed oil around intercooler. Checked turbo and discovered that it was passing oil really bad, so advised customer of turbo problem and could he bring service book with him when collecting vehicle. Turns out that customer had JUST purchased vehicle with from MAIN DEALER with FULL MAIN DEALER SERVICE HISTORY FROM NEW and THE BOOK WAS STAMPED. Now, won't go into the details here but I contacted the dealer the next day on his behalf and suffice to say that within hours they had collected said vehicle from customers home, left a courtesy car and then fitted a NEW turbo (£1200.00) and offered him the next service FOC (which means that I won't get it). The thing is, that I see this kind of thing on a regular basis and I am just a little 'back street garage' so my point here is this, in the event of a 'super complaint' within the industry, who will be the scapegoats? Colin (of course I have toilet rolls to wipe your bum for you and ONLY £40.00 per hour) Calder.
"Post of the week" Should be post of the month, or maybe even year. Covers much of how I feel.
The people trying to administer these various schemes, be they well meaning or otherwise, have no idea of the complexity and variety of problems we face every day.
Sometimes, new customers who have been charged heavily(by others) for attempting to sort a difficult problem ask if they have been overcharged/treated fairly/ripped off. I can't tell because I am not aware of the preconditions and nature of faults found. How can any impartial party assess this in a reasonable time. It could soon become more involved than OJ's murder trial.
People who always go to the cheapest garage they can find for distress repairs are very likely to be dissatisfied. People who have regular maintenance with a reputable garage are likely to be satisfied. Dealerships, that's another thing entirely. Generally the bigger they are, the worse they treat customers. I am surprised manufacturers have not done something about this. It DOES cost them sales.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by Phil Dunmore on January 13, 2009, 9:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Philip Dunmore
Colin, perhaps you should point out that as the paid for services were not very effective a free one is likely to be even less so. Might be an idea to check that turbo as well.
Sometimes you have to sell yourself a bit.
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by ROGER JORDAN on January 14, 2009, 11:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Roger Jordan
Well, what can you say to Tony`s post, as always hits the nail on the head in a no-nonsense way and I defy anybody to find fault with his points and observations, I`m sure we have all had just the experiences he describes. On a different note I have just had sight of a solicitors letter to a client setting out the standard terms of reference in any actions taken on behalf of said client, it runs to three pages of why procedings might not be effective how they will do their best at all times but can make no observations (much less guarantees!) as to how successful their efforts on his behalf might be, it is truly a work of art in the best traditions of Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, the one section that they are quite clear on is that they will charge £150 per hour, how many hours? not a clue, simply pay £250 up front to start with and let`s see how we go!!! And someone accuses the motor trade of being a rip off! I suppose £40 an hour is rip off £150 is "professional" Best regards Roger
Re: Super Complaint?
Posted by tony bickers on January 15, 2009, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Super Complaint?" Tony Bickers
Hi Roger spent an hour with my accountant today, 100 pound an hour ! You have to have these people onside, but ?????
