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Vauxhall Zafira 1.6 Z16XE1 2008 - Pinking noise - Unresolved #

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski on June 28, 2013, 4:42 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2008
Engine Size and Code *: 1.6 z16xe1
( Optional ) Scanner Used: superscan
( Optional) Fault Codes: p0170

hello
could anybody advice anything on this one? When engine gets hot under the little load 2000 rpm you can hear pinking noise. The customer had p0171 fuesl system to lean. No air leaks , new map sensor, fuel presusre ok, Front lambda senspor very slow it goes from 0.9 to 0.1 Volt but very slow . One circle almost 8 seconds. Could anybody advice anythiong on this one please?

Link: http://pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2013, 8:27 pm, in reply to "zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Piotr,

Is the Knock Sensor working? The Lambda sensor cycle is as you say far too slow and should switch at approx 1 Hertz. I would have thought that if it sits at 0.1v for too long then it would trigger PO171 and possibly cause the pinking. Has the Lambda sensor been tested? An exhaust emission check of the O2 will verify (or not) that it is running too lean during HO2 switching cycle.

Regards

Pete M

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2013, 9:59 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

havent check knock sensor- will do it tomorrow 1st thing,lambda too slow -possinble loging in fuel trim , I tested-scoped the sensor - yes too slow. In 8 seconds -one cycle .I dont have emmision tester to check emmision. Now my question - what could cause this sort of behaviour?

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2013, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Piotr,

My guess from this end of my lap-top is that the Lambda sensor is faulty. Try blipping the throttle to see how quick/slow the sensor reacts. If its possible, try removing the Lambda sensor and see if its heavily carboned up. This could also cause the slow reaction time. I assume the vehicle drives ok despite the pinking.

Regards

Pete M

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2013, 10:24 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

new lambda fitted - both by previous garage. Car drives fine no problem whatsoever. Only when gets worm you can get that pinking . Also from customer relation he had mil light cleaned but it keep coming back after 40 miles.

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2013, 11:16 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Peter Mutlow

I cannot think why a Lambda Sensor will switch that slowly unless it is faulty or clogged by carbon.

Pinking can be caused by various problems such as incorrect plugs, carbon build-up, weak mixture etc. However, I would have thought the knock sensor if working correctly would deal with a certain amount of pinking. Nonetheless, that would not explain the slow switching of the Lambda sensor. The sensor needs testing irrespective of its age.

Regards

Pete M

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Steve Harrison <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1363' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 9:44 am, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Stephen Harrison

The lambda sensor may be reporting exactly what it is seeing. The sensor does not control the switching rate but will react to the ECU trimming the fueling.
It could be faulty but presumably the same fault existed before the sensors were replaced? (What make are the sensors) It would seem unlikely that the original & the new sensor had the same fault.

Steve

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 1:55 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Lee Mackintosh

Squirt brake cleanerdown the air intake and monitor how the 02 sensor reacts. Should in my opinion react almost instantly.

If it doesn't then I would suspect a fautl with the 02 sensor or circuit.

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Glyn Morgan <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT2543' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 4:39 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Glyn Morgan

Hi Piotr,

I have seen similar on earlier Zafiras.

Do you have the option to reset adaptations with Dec ?

Cheers Glyn

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 5:21 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

squirt of brake cleaner- lambda react -staright awau
lambda adaptation performed with autocom
Still the same - lambda very slow.

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 6:44 pm, in reply to "zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

could it be ecu fulty ? Not responding fast enough for oxygen sensor signal? There must be something what is controlling the mixture.
Someone said - sticky valves are common in this but I'm not fancy take the head off just to check it.
Much appreciated for any advices and ideas.
Lambda is slow from 1st start

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 6:46 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Lee Mackintosh

If the 02 sensor reacted instantly then I would doubt your problem is with the sensor.

Has this definitely got a map sensor and not a air flow meter as I thoght the xe1 used afm and the xe used map.

I think its probably in need of smoke test to see if its got any air leaks, in the past I've had egr valve body's leak and exhaust manifold crack which may open up with heat as the engine warms up.

Remove heat shield to have a look.

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Ian Baxter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1560' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2013, 10:17 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Ian Baxter

hello Piotr,
Long shot, Your customer hasn't been tempted to fill up with dodgy cash only petrol has he ?

Ian

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2013, 11:18 am, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

Hi Ian
as I said every advice much appreciated - I connected separate fuel supply to eliminate that as well - lambda still slow.

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Glyn Morgan <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT2543' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2013, 2:12 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

Hi Piotr,

The 8 second cycle is that at 2000 rpm or idle ?

What are your fuel trims ?

What voltage do you have on the post cat sensor ?

Could you post pre/post O2 sensor waveforms.

Is it possible the pre/post sensors have been fitted the wrong way around, I have seen this on a Peugeot after an exhaust was fitted !

Cheers Glyn

Edit, I have also seen strange faults disappear after disconnecting the ECU connectors/battery reset.
Does this have the correct Bosch plugs fitted ?
Sorry for all the questions, just thinking out loud.

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Terry Wood <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT2771' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2013, 3:38 pm, in reply to "zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

Hi Piotr

Whats the Engine Vacuum like? As you could have a Valve timing Issue.

HTH
Terry Wood

Terry@ydhost.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2013, 7:44 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

engine vacum is 22inHg

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2013, 7:50 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

8 seconds on idle
fuel trims - after 15 miles long 8% short 1%
post cat -not 100% sure but it stay steady at 0.8v
I will post teh waveform tomorrow front vs post
The sensors are fitted correctlly to the car and wiring
I will dosconnect the ecu 1st thing in the morning

Glyn I have no problems with all your questions- I undesratnd diagnostocs process - you need ask the question to give the right answer

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 1, 2013, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Piotr,

From what I have read, it would appear that your pre-cat Lambda sensor is working fine and as already been said, it is reacting to what it is seeing. I cant see it being an ECU fault but I think the next step as has already been suggested is for a smoke test. Is the switching cycle the same at normal and fast idle? During the cycle, can you hear the engine note change? As a long shot, I would disconnect the EVAP and EGR to see if there is any difference.

An interesting problem and I wish you the best of luck.

Regards

Pete M

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 1, 2013, 11:44 am, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

IDLE with egr blanked and evap disconnected - still very slow switching
on 2k revs front lambda switching a little bit faster , is trying to work properly but still not this what we want.
Unfortunattelly I didnt put the pictures on the forum - because I cant make it

Link: http://pandpauto.co.uk

Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 1, 2013, 11:56 am, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"
Peter Warman

Hi Piotr

What make is the o2 sensor?

Had one a couple of years back with a slow reacting sensor from another garage, they had fitted 2 from Euro Car parts and still the same

I took the sensor out and it did not have any brand on it (probably a cheap Chinese copy). I fitted a genuine Vauxhall and was all OK

Peter

Unresolved #

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski on July 1, 2013, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: zafira 2008 pinking noise z16xe1"

Thanks for all your advice guys - i gave up - I dont know - not good enough. Apparently they are taking it to dealer tomorrow. If I will hear anything I will keep you informed. Once again thanks for your time.

Link: http://pandpauto.co.uk

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2013, 10:09 pm, in reply to "Unresolved #"

customer picked up from dealer today and comes to me staright away. After doing 52 miles and the lights comes back on. LOL. Do you guys want to advice anything else? I would like to try get to the bottom of it. Quick reminder: P0171 -system lean logged in after 40-50 miles, lambda working but very slow-one cycle in 8seconds. Blanked egr, disconnected evap, checked timing,new map sensor, no air leaks inlet and
lambda on idleexhaust

lambda 2k revs

once again any help nad advices much apreciated. I'm not doing this for the money . I just try show the power of independent garage.

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2013, 10:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
Peter Mutlow

Evening Piotr,

I admire your resolve in trying to get to the bottom of this.

However..... I think the path to the answer will come from the results of the following two questions:

What make is the Lambda Sensor?

What is the result of the smoke test?

Out of interest, what did the main dealer do with the car?

Best of luck.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2013, 11:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"

Tahnks Pete . Smoke test - no leaks on intake or exhaust side.I will get bosch lambda fitted and keep you informed. Dealer?What they done? Well ... keep testing and something...whatever - this is why I want to get to the bottom .many thanks again for your input on this one.
There is no unfixed cars. Human made it - human is going to fix it. Thats my motto-heeheheh

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Glyn Morgan <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT2543' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 6, 2013, 10:52 am, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"

Hi Piotr,

Can you post the freeze frame data ?

Are the images you have posted from a static workshop test ?

Have you monitored pre/post cat sensors on a road test ?

Are you sure Autocom carried out the adaptation reset ?

Cheers Glyn

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by ray ferreday <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5108' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 6, 2013, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
Raymond Ferreday

what is the engine vaccum at idle and the map reading at idle ray

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by MALCOLM TRIPP <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 6, 2013, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
Malcolm Tripp

Lets look at this from another angle what is the lambda earth voltage ?

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 11, 2013, 8:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"

lambda voltage is 0.022V after adding extra earth wire still the same . The weird think is in the meantime I had another zafira 1.6 2007 and lambda sensor is lazy as well but there is no problems with the car. Here is freze frame data if someone would like to have a look .

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 11, 2013, 9:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
Mark Carter

Hi peter,

Did get any time to scope the injectors as per our conversation?

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 11, 2013, 10:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Piotr,

Two questions:

1. Did you get a Bosch Lambda sensor fitted and if so, was there any improvement?

2. The 2nd Zafira you say also has a lazy lambda sensor. How lazy in comparison?

Best of luck

Pete M

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 12, 2013, 9:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"

bosch lambda fitted - still the same - not change at all. Second zafira there is 2 cycles in 8 seconds . I will be keep checking any vauxhall for foture comparisson .
ref Mark - yes I did it nothing obvious- or lack of experience with the scope and technician too poor. LOL

Link: http://www.pandpauto.co.uk

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by John Wardrobe <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5342' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 13, 2013, 12:46 am, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"
John Wardrobe

Hi. Not sure if this is the same setup but i had a Z16XEP astra with the same dtc that had me going for some time.
Has this got a split inlet manifold?
The one i did had bad carbon build up in the EGR gallery within the manifold not letting egr gas's through and effecting fueling, small egr tracks into each port where badly blocked but not enough to stop smoke on the smoke test.
worth a look.
cheers
john

Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 13, 2013, 1:05 am, in reply to "Re: Unresolved # still open for your help guys"

Hi Piotr

I have scanned over your post mate so forgive me if I am repeating anything.

from your live data list at a quick glance... it looks like the pre cat lambda is reading lean and the ecu is working its nuts off to try and bring the Lambda readings up hence the +23% long
term fueltrims.

The post cat lambda appears to be measuring rich, next to no oxygen in the exhaust!!

This would say to me the pre cat lambda is not functioning correctly. (looking at one frame of data can be misleading though)

If you have got a 4 channel scope?
Measure....

Lambda signal 2v scale
lambda ground 2v scale
injector control volts 100v scale
Amp clamp on the heater circuit 60a clamp 20a mode 2a scale

Watch the lambda signal, heater current and injector operation during cold start to hot.

What happens?

Force the system rich and lean and watch the lambda reaction

May be worth blanking the EGRb off too at some point.

What is the injector duration cold and what does it go down to when the engine warms up?

If you would like me to host any waveforms for you...
Keep them under 25mb and email them to me mate.

jeardley213@gmail.com

Il have a proper look at your post tomoz and see how far off the mark I am LOL

James

Re: Vauxhall Zafira 1.6 Z16XE1 2008 - Pinking noise - Unresolved #

Posted by David Davies <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT5218' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 13, 2013, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Vauxhall Zafira 1.6 Z16XE1 2008 - Pinking noise - Unresolved #"
David Davies

I believe this and other Vauxhall engines of this vintage can have a problem with the PCV valve which is integral with the cam cover.To check for this,measure the crankcase vacuum at the oil filler cap.The crude test I use is to put on vinyl glove and place hand over oil filler,if there is very low vacuum there,then the valve cover must be replaced.From experience this fault will cause a fuel trim code to be set.HTH.

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