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Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Colin Bunn on March 29, 2008, 10:50 pm

I am not sure if this is a wind up,but had a call today asking about the type of music played in the business.The call was official and seemed above board so i went along with the conversation.I confirmed that I listen to the radio during the working day which i presume is quite normal,or so i thought.I was then informed that in order to listen to the radio whilst at work in the premises that i will need to buy a license.I was a bit surprised and asked why the radio station didnt pay for the privilege,I was told that even though the broadcasters had paid them a fee to allow them to broadcast the music we as businesses were liable for a license in order to listen to it(double whammy!).The cost?£125 per year!! ouch.It is nearly April 1 so it must be a wind up.I have now turned off the radio just in case the pleasure police are around and catch me listening to something for free!!

I know the music indusrty is getting deperate but this is getting silly.Or is it April fool??

Colin

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Harney on March 29, 2008, 11:18 pm, in reply to "Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

Hi Colin,
Not april fool wind up...

apparently kwikfit got fined 250 grand for having the radio on in a few of there outlets and not having a licence !
It's not for you listening to it, thats ok - its for "broadcasting" it to other people like your techs and customers.
Regards
Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Peter Warman on March 30, 2008, 10:36 am, in reply to "Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Hi Colin

There is a thread further down that may help

Peter

Link: http://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk2/msg/1190227112.html

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Shaun Dale on April 1, 2008, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Shaun Dale

I too have had a phonecall!

There's only me, no employees but as it's a business premises and the public have access then I need a licence to listen to my own radio. What makes it even worse is that I usually have it switched off and maybe listen to it about 10 hours max a year. so that's about £10 an hour, excellent value for money!
If I test a customers radio so see if it's working correctly it must only be for a few seconds absolutely no more. I can understand it for shopping malls etc. but why are they coming after the small guy. As far as I'm concerned if I have bought a CD I've licenced the copyright for my own use and I will listen to it where I wish, if it's at work then so be it, but they still reckon I need a licence for that. They took up 20 minutes of my time discussing it, my minimum charge is 1 hour I think I ought to invoice them at £106+vat per hour for my time!
Oh, and they said they had received a positive response to this campaign, yeah I bet!
If I worked from home would I need a licence to listen in my front room?
Shaun

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by chris hogan on April 1, 2008, 7:31 pm, in reply to "Performing rights society???new license required!!"

i wonder if you are mobile do you have to have a licence !!

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Barry Rudd on April 1, 2008, 9:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Only if you drive with your window down and slow enough for them to slap a summons on your windscreen.

I'm a big supporter of live music but.....
Are we going to have music police visiting everyone, I dont think so.
Playing music encourages album sales and the artist gets royalties-maybe we should charge them commision
What next, a methane tax from the workshop toilet, payable to indian restraunts
Barry

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Colin Bunn on April 1, 2008, 10:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

When did this law get smuggled through parliament?We all know that the music industry is struggling but so is the motor trade,perhaps we could set up a license to charge for looking at nice cars,say £125 a year just to look.With a reduction for the second year,people with sunglasses get a discount and if you walk round with your eyes closed,no charge at all!!

Colin

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Martin Kelly on April 2, 2008, 1:23 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

I too had THE phone call from PRS and I asked what if I used my MP3 player with earphones?
Oh that's free sir!

I think they should be chasing after the 'free download websites' but then that's probably far too costly for them, and we're just easy pickings!

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Michael Whitworth on April 2, 2008, 7:49 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Just googled performing rights society and it would seem we are not on our own. The PRS are active in all areas harrassing all types of business, even charities!!

British chamber of commerce

Federation of small businesses

Mike

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Steve Nicholas on April 3, 2008, 8:44 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Stephen Nicholas

Hi All

Gleaned the following from one of Michael's provided links :-

There is an e-petition started by Steve Webb on the 10 Downing Street website - google e-petitions. The petition is to: make Playing a Radio in the Workplace exempt from any claim of Copyright.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Steve Shaw on April 3, 2008, 12:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Steve Shaw

don't know if this helps, but i asked the same question on another forum & i got this reply:

if it's a radio broadcast that's being played and not a CD or other recording and the people listening are not being charged to do so and the broadcast doesn't substantially effect the prices paid (ie customers are not there for the music) then it's not a copyright infringement under the act.

If it's just a radio they're talking about I'd write back to the cheeky fekers and tell them where to shove their demand as they're taking the p!ss.

EDIT: To save you reading it all here's the appropriate part of the act which I think exempts you from paying for a radio for your staff.

Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880048_en_1

72 Free public showing or playing of broadcast or cable programme

(1) The showing or playing in public of a broadcast or cable programme to an audience who have not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast or programme is to be seen or heard does not infringe any copyright in—

(a) the broadcast or cable programme, or

(b) any sound recording or film included in it.

(2) The audience shall be treated as having paid for admission to a place—

(a) if they have paid for admission to a place of which that place forms part; or

(b) if goods or services are supplied at that place (or a place of which it forms part)—

(i) at prices which are substantially attributable to the facilities afforded for seeing or hearing the broadcast or programme, or

(ii) at prices exceeding those usually charged there and which are partly attributable to those facilities.

(3) The following shall not be regarded as having paid for admission to a place—

(a) persons admitted as residents or inmates of the place;

(b) persons admitted as members of a club or society where the payment is only for membership of the club or society and the provision of facilities for seeing or hearing broadcasts or programmes is only incidental to the main purposes of the club or society.

please remember that this just 1 persons opinion/interpretation of the rule, not necessarily correct.

i haven't yet had the phone call but would be very interested to know if it was successful in telling them where to get off

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Shaun Dale on April 3, 2008, 4:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Shaun Dale

Brilliant Steve,
It certainly seems to me that as our customers are at our premises for the purpose of having their car repaired and not for the purposes of listening to the music (and no charge is made to do so) then there is no infringement. I wonder if there is a waiting room and the music is on in there that might be considered to be an infringement but that could be argued "that the prices are not substantially attributable to the facilities afforded" i.e. contrary to item 2.b.(i)
In the light of this I really don't think we need to have a licence. I think I will send them a letter and see what their reply is.
Shaun

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Richard Endean on April 19, 2008, 8:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Richard Endean

Having read the stuff on the prs website, the licence is required whether the radio (etc) is owned by the employer or the employee. Suppose you listen to someone else's radio!?

I'm sure you could find a suitable name from somewhere without an extradition arrangement.

And another thing.. do you have to have a licence if you're selling the equipment i.e for demonstration purposes? I could soon stick a for sale sign on it. £1000 anyone?

Cheers for now,
Richard

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Harney on April 19, 2008, 9:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

We've had 4 letters from them this week alone !!! how desperate are they ?
The last one was insuating that we were breaking the law and that we should contact them forthwith or else - cheeky sods.

Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Chris Collins on April 20, 2008, 10:42 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Chris Collins

Hi All

I was talking to my comptuter man the other day, And he assures me if you spool the radio though your computer to L/speakers you do not require a License to listen.

I have tried to verify this fact to no avail does anyone else know if this is correct!

These people are getting a pain, I dont know of any other trade or shops that are been targeted
in this way.

Talk about big brother

Hey Ho!!
Chris Collins

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Harney on April 20, 2008, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

Apparently doesn't matter if it's put through loudspeakers via a pc, it's still classed as a "performance"

http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/PPS%20Tariffs/Tariff%20I.pdf

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4712008.stm

Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by sean savage on April 20, 2008, 6:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Sean Savage

1 letter a week for the last 3wks in leeds area here.
well dont know about you guys but unless they get very persistant on the phone or come to visit they aint getting a damned penny!! everyone wants a bite of the cake in this trade alately!

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by simon dean on April 20, 2008, 8:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Simon Dean

Hello All
2 letters in 10 days,the second one saying are we continuing to break the law???

We have had no phone calls so they dont even know if we have a radio or not!!

can someone post a definitive answer so we can all write to them to tell them where to go!!

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Harney on April 20, 2008, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

I'm gonna phone them tomorrow and quote "Section 72, sub section 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988" and see what they say.

Let you know
Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by sean savage on April 20, 2008, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

in english that is dave????

phoning them puts em directly onto you remember i am gonna let them come to me i'm afraid.
if we actually added all the "minor" costs and charges we pay per year i bet it would be quite scary! wonder if this charge is tax deductable?? wouldnt be so bad if so.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Graham Bullock on April 20, 2008, 9:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Graham Bullock

I live in the middle of a row of Guest Houses and quite a few of them have been receiving phone calls from the PRS, the Guest House owners have been asking their associations what to do and they have been told DO NOT PAY ANYTHING as they do not need to.
Interestingly the calls all appear to be coming from the same person as if that is the only person there requesting payment and this person always refers to a "Contract" being made between you and them and when you get down to it - it is worded as if it is voluntary contribution.

With all the SCAMS about I would just assume this to be one of them, unless proper documentation is provided from a proper address. Be very careful of sending cheques or making payments payable to just "PRS" as that could be cashed by anybody using PRS as their business name.

Who can guarantee that it was the PRS who contacted them and how did they contact you? Was the paperwork official? Was this the same for everybody or is there a scam working alongside the real requests?

Graham

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by David Harney on April 21, 2008, 11:14 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

Well, rang em this morning, apparently clause 72 sub section 1 of the copyright act 1988 doesn't apply (because it suits them I assume)
They reckon, if you have a radio on, that anymore than 2 people can "hear" then you require a licence to "perform" that music.
Told em where to stick there "begging letters"

and to take us off there database as we didn't have a radio (so, expecting a visit sometime soon

)

Regards
Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Barry Rudd on April 21, 2008, 11:48 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Barry Rudd

Hi
They have been trying to get through to me for a few weeks. The number they are using is 01415704117-I determined to give a two word answer, however today I managed to be most polite-
" I've been expecting your call, and I'm afraid you wont be getting a penny off me or any one else I know. The motor trade has not been impressed with your intimidatory approach--GOODBYE"
Cheers
Barry

Due to several house moves, divorce etc . I have had a run (harrasment) in with the TV licence people-I think one of my pleasures must be DEALING with petty officials-looking forward to a visit from the PRS

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave cheesman on April 21, 2008, 8:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Cheesman

I too have recieved these letters from the PRS, they threaten to make contact with me. As of yet i have not had a call but the radio is in the skip and they will be politely told to leave me alone. I wonder what it will do for radio advertising ??

Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Tom Williams on April 22, 2008, 1:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Tom Williams

Hi,

Anybody else read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'.
Specifically the part where the author links the loud playing of music in the repair shop to the lack of interest on the part of the mechanics to do a good job.
There is a slight ring of truth to it.

TW

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by John Kennard on April 23, 2008, 1:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
John Kennard

The best tactic with these people is to write in to them as we did and quote section 72 to them. Refuse to speak to them on the phone as this is easily the cheapest way for them to frighten you into paying, neither does it give you time to think out your tactics or reply by constructivley reading posts like this. By writing their costs quadruple they have to employ a huge team of staff to reply to all the correspondence with postage costs, also you can claim it got lost in the post and string them along as long as possible.

The trouble is that if only 5% of the businesses pay up when contacted they will grow in size and have more clout. Starve them out by raising their costs and time for them, make them deal with every case on a individual basis and then lets see what headway they make then. We are still waiting for a reply to our letter which I will post the results on here and then wait a few weeks, may be months before I reply having watched out for what is happening on here. I really do feel this is such a ambigious law that we need to fight for our right not to pay.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by mike bebb on April 24, 2008, 8:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Mike Bebb

Had phone call last week ,told them that as I had a sign up informing customers not to listen to the radio as I have no licence to broadcast music ,as thats what a solicitor customer told me to tell them ( free advice probably not cheap).waiting for a visit ,wonder if HMP Cardiff have a licence?

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by John Kennard on April 29, 2008, 6:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
John Kennard

Just got our reply to our letter we sent to them, it was a replica of the first letter asking if we are breaking the law? As they have not had the decency to reply to my letter, I shall not talk to them on the phone if they ring. I will ignore this letter until they reply personally to the issues I raised with them concerning section 72 in writing from them.
John Kennard.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Graham McNichol on July 30, 2008, 2:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Graham McNichol

Has anyone had a visit or bought a license yet! they are pestering me with letters and phone calls evey week at the moment.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Graham Bullock on July 31, 2008, 11:12 am, in reply to "Performing rights society???new license required!!"

I am now also having phone calls and letters from the PRS. I rang the MVRA the other day and the bloke said "it must be somebody winding you up mate" I explained about all your comments and several other local businesses having calls and he finally agreed to put me through to the free legal helpline. A solicitor rang me back and said "yes, you should have a license" When I asked about section 72 of the copyright, designs and patent act 1988 he had not got a bleeding idea and I apparently knew more about it than he did.
Basically, if the customer does not pay for admission to your premises then no infringement has occurred, BUT if you charge for goods or services then the customers is treated as having paid an admission, BUT only if the prices of the goods or services are SUBSTANTIALLY ATTRIBUTABLE to the facilities afforded for seeing or hearing the broadcast or programme OR the prices are exceeding those that are usually charged there AND which are partly attributable to those facilities afforded for seeing or hearing the broadcast.

My way of reading this is we can tell them to get stuffed as the customer does not pay for entry to my premises and none of my charges are attributable to my music system.

Graham

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Steve Nicholas on July 31, 2008, 10:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Stephen Nicholas

Thank you for that information Graham.

I'll give it a go next time they contact me and see what reaction I get.

Regards,

Steve

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Harney on August 2, 2008, 1:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Dave Harney

I've already had that conversation with them, and they waffle on about the difference between a "Broadcast" and a "performance".
Just tell em you haven't got a radio and that they should go and bother someone else ! they will tell you that they "might" send someone out to check whether you have or not - take a chance !!

You will get one more letter then thats it ! they go quiet and go bother someone else.

Regards
Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Kevin Apps on August 4, 2008, 12:03 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Kevin Apps

Hi Dave
As this is posted on a open part of UKAT perhaps not the best place to air your answer to the question.
All the best Mate.
Kev.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Shaun Dale on August 4, 2008, 5:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

It's been quiet for me for a while and then they sent me a letter last week and I have just received another letter today!I think they are just trying to grind everybody down until they buy a licence, whether they need it or not.
The thing is although I do have a radio, I don't think it's been on this year (I just don't like the radio on)! It would be no loss to me to throw it away except I feel we do have right to have the radio on if we wish. It's never been a problem all the years that I have been in industry so what law has changed?
I think I must have had about 8 letters and at least 3 phone calls so far, I reckon this is bordering on harassment.
When I get time they are going to get a very forthright letter from me!

Shaun

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Hill on August 4, 2008, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Where will this end?

Maybe I should remove all the old magazines from the waiting room. After all when they were purchased, it was for personal reading & now I am using them to enhance the waiting experience of my customers.

I am anxious to send a cheque to someone as I feel that I am taking advantage of the copyright laws!

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Barry Rudd on August 7, 2008, 11:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

I think this thread should end now
we have all had these letters and phone calls and no one I know in the trade has any intention of buying a licence--Room 101 for any further correspondence and lets get on with making a living
cheers
Barry

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Michael Whitworth on August 8, 2008, 10:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Barry,

>>>>I think this thread should end now<<<<

The thread will end when members lose interest in the topic and feel they have nothing further to add,

As of yet I have not had a call from the PRS but having been prewarned and read about experiences of others I now know to be careful not to get caught out. I would also be interested if anyone actually does get proscecuted and if section 72 doers hold up.

Mike

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Hill on August 9, 2008, 8:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Hi Barry

>>>>I think this thread should end now<<<<

I don't know why you feel the need to do this. I have seen it time & time again & funnily enough, it often follows one of my posts. Are you trying to tell me something?

Like Mike says, topics will end when folks have had enough & not when one individual suggests he has tired of it.

Kind regards

Dave (Hill)

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Michael Whitworth on August 9, 2008, 9:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Dave,

>>>>funnily enough, it often follows one of my posts.<<<<

I hadn't noticed that!..... Maybe Barry has a point..........

Mike

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Barry Rudd on August 11, 2008, 4:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Your both quite right of course
I Suppose I am fed up that the subject, the letters from PRS (still coming) and the intimidation has gone on for so long, when we all have better things to do and no one has any intention of buying the licence
regards
Barry

PS "I don't know why you feel the need to do this. I have seen it time & time again"
Dont know where that comes from Dave ? Hang on, I've just found one out of 1100 posts from me on another Forum
"I think that this post needs winding up"

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Dave Hill on August 13, 2008, 9:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

Mike

Ya cheeky bugger

Barry

>>>I think that this post needs winding up<<<

>>>And well done Dave--End of I hope
Barry<<<

>>>I think this thread should end now<<<

Seeing some kind of patern here mate. Give it a rest hey!

regards

Dave

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Bryan Smith on August 16, 2008, 10:28 am, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Bryan Smith

Hi all
I have been following this post with interest as I know that other local garages have had phone calls. I however, have been left alone until recently. The first letter went in the bin but I decided to read the second. On a previous post someone mentioned that they rang the PRS and was told that section 72 did not apply. If this is the case then why does the second paragraph on the reverse of the letter say "By law under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, if you use copyright music in public (i.e. outside of the home)..........."
As far as I am concerned then if they are asking for money under the 1988 act then all sections DO apply. I am sorry for going over old ground but no one has so far mentioned this paragraph in the letter. I have e mailed them and pointed this out but like others have found I just expect another copy of the same letter.
Regards, Bryan.

Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!

Posted by Jim watson on August 16, 2008, 12:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Performing rights society???new license required!!"

I got one from them and emailed them back quoting the number they wanted and told them I was mobile and also that they were money grabbers told them to stop hassling people but I still got another letter a week later.

Some Good Advise

Posted by Peter Warman on September 2, 2008, 2:17 pm, in reply to "Performing rights society???new license required!!"
Peter Warman - Administrator

Some good advice from the guys that know

http://www.virginradio.co.uk/listen/at_work.html

Peter

Re: Some Good Advise

Posted by Bryan Smith on September 5, 2008, 10:19 am, in reply to "Some Good Advise"
Bryan Smith

I think this thread will continue until we have a definitive answer on this. My feelings are that the PRS is a self appointed collector of royalties not an official public body. The way I understand it (no doubt someone will have a different view or correct me if I am wrong) is that any act of parliament is only confirmed after it has been tested in court. I am not quite sure of the full meaning of 'common law' but I think that has something to do with it.
Anyway, my point is that unless someone has been taken to court by the PRS under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988, that will be the only way we will ever find out how much power they have. It will get even more complicated when you take into account the fact that all garages and premises are different in design and layout etc as well as the number of employees and workstations. If the PRS had any real power we would have seen a deluge of business' taken to court for not having a licence. I have so far not heard of any but would welcome comments from anyone that has. This is a copy of the e mail that I sent them and to which I have not had a response apart from a further copy of the same letter.

Dear sir
I am writing to inform you that I am a sole trader and although I play music in my workshop no customers or members of the public have access and I have clear signs indicating this. Customers do have access to my office/reception but no music of any kind is played here.
Furthermore, in your letter you have quoted the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (the act). Section 72 of 'the act' clearly states, that playing a broadcast to an audience that have not paid for entry or where the cost of the goods or services are not substantially attributable to the cost of the broadcast, does not infringe any copyright.
I will assume that you will not contact me again with regard to this matter.

Regards to all, Bryan.

Re: Some Good Advise

Posted by Steve Nicholas on September 5, 2008, 7:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise"

Hi All

I know of a local hairdresser who, despite a good number of warnings, continued to have music on in her salon and was eventually taken to court by the PRS.

The fine was several thousand pounds and effectively put her out of business.

PRS seem to have been given teeth by high authority to pursue their course of action.

I have to add that the example I give was a blatant infringement since the music was played for the benefit of customers.

Our favourite fast-fit was also "done" for infringement I believe (apologies if this has arisen earlier in this discussion - it's been going so long I've lost track!)

Regards,

Steve

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Bryan Smith on September 6, 2008, 10:58 am, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise"
Bryan Smith

It seems that Kwik Fit have not yet been sued. The PRS have only been given the go ahead to sue by a scottish judge (not sure of the relevance in english law). As I have already said and assumed, the PRS have not yet established the right to charge us for playing a radio. This is an interesting thread and the last post is the most interesting.

http://www.legalbanter.co.uk/uk-legal-moderated-legal-topics/40644-copyright-performing-rights-society-vs.html

"It has occurred to me (being a little cynical) that possibly some bright spark at PRS realised that until some definitive court rulings clarified matters e.g. kwik fit etc.

PRS could generate an enormous amount of revenue by shouting loudly and waving a big (yet untried) legal stick to bullying payments for 'licenses' for employee radios at work etc.

I wonder if after the dust has settles and the issues clarified by court rulings if there will follow refunds of payments for licenses that were (infact) unnecessary"

Keep playing for now! Bryan.

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by aidan birley on September 6, 2008, 3:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"

Hi

just a couple points on this.

I had always thought a license was needed to play music in workshop, when I studied motor trade management for IMI qualification this subject was covered and that was 26 year ago !!!

My other point is that from 2002 to 2005 I did my turn as treasurer for local church. we paid for 3 license's to cover copyright issues

1 To play recoreded music (radio, CD or Tape)This was needed as we played music at the Youth club.
2 to show video's / dvd's, again to cover community work youth club, mums and toddler etc.
3 To copy words of songs / hymns. This was needed as we sometimes copied words onto song sheets or order of service ( e.g funerals weddings etc )
other license's where available but not applicable to our use.

This of course is slightly different as member's of the public have access, rather than a workshop enviromnt,so cant comment on that but would apply to reception / shop / showroom area I think. It does confirm that this is not a NEW issue and some people have complied.

The Good point is that, unlike many costs you do have a choice the radio has an off switch !!

What I DON'T like is the way they assume we are all Guilty, demanding letters and telephone calls, with no supporting evidence should not be permitted. They get the same rude response from me as they do from all you guy's if they ring. letters go un answered, refuse to reply to them. I just hope they wast there time and pay me a visit

Cheers Aidan

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Bryan Smith on September 9, 2008, 9:00 am, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Bryan Smith

Hi Aiden.
I have always assumed that you do need permissions to play almost any kind of music or almost anything else that has copyright to an audience. I am sure that during my time in the services the videos that we watched in the NAFFI club were probably a breach of copyright.
Although you are also correct to say that the radio can be turned off, that is not the point here. I for one, like to have the radio on (even though my one employee doesn't like my choice of station

). It really bugs me that a customer can drive on to my forecourt with his radio on the same station and listen for free but as soon as he gets out of his car the PRS say its a performance. As far as I'm concerned the copyright of anything played on a radio station should be down to the broadcaster to sort out. It is them that are actually making there living out of playing music, not us. The artists also have massive coverage by getting there work on air time and perhaps the PRS should realise that they will do there members more good by leaving the status quo. What is clear is that I have trawled the net and can find NO reports of succesful prosecutions under the 1988 act. Until the Kwik fit case comes to court I for one, intend to carry on as I am.

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Sean Connelly on September 9, 2008, 3:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Sean Connelly

Hi Aiden,

As far as I'm aware the Radio/TV Stations already pay PRS as they are obviously using the music to attract customers.

I was led to believe that it was over £50 per record per play and that many years ago....but don't hold me to it.

HTH

Sean

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by aidan on September 9, 2008, 8:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Aiden Birley

Bryan / Sean

I did say a workshop was not quite the same and it was certainly not my intention to support the PRS ( I dislike them to )and advocate that you should pay up or switch off.

I was trying to put a different slant on it and point out that they may have a valid case, which you should consider.

My other point was that it is a ' service ' that you can chose to use or not, unlike most license fee's that we have to pay, often for no direct benefit.

As I think it has already been said in this thread, most radio station survive on advertising revenue, to lose the work place listener, which must be a large proportion of there audiance,will almost certainly close many of them down I feel.

I high profile case, with a definite answer is what is needed by both sides I feel.

Cheers Aidan

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Bryan Smith on September 10, 2008, 5:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Bryan Smith

Hi Aidan
I accept that you do not support the PRS actions and didn't mean to convey that. What I was trying to get across is very similar to what most people feel about this, and turning off radios appears to be what a lot of business' are doing. I would not like to see this happen. I have looked into this in quite a lot of detail and have come to the conclusion that the PRS have just decided off their own back that they can use the 1988 act to raise revenue. They are in fact a registered charity and are using what I can only describe as agencies to collect that revenue. This is no different to what a lot of charities are doing nowdays, some even stooping to blatant lies and deceit. What is clear is the fact that they have not yet proceeded with the case against Kwik Fit and some legal people doubt if they ever will. It appears that their own members have serious doubts about there actions. It seems that they are just collecting the money from business' that are willing to pay but have not taken any real actions against those that wont. They even claim on there own website that they have taken action against Kwik Fit but forget to mention the fact that the case has not been concluded. I, for one, applaud kwik Fit in resisting the PRS, someone has to. I will also point out that I have no objection to paying for a licence or whatever else is required for bona fide public performances of copyright material. I also purchase all of my music (which is very little) from reputable shops, not free downloads. My last word on this is to advise all of you to ignore the PRS and put your radios back on. It took years of warnings to Kwik Fit before the PRS started the legal action.
Sorry for long post and I realise some people are p****d off with this subject but it seems that a definite answer is just not out there.
Regards to all, Bryan.

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by aidan on September 10, 2008, 7:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"

Bryan

This must be the first time on this forume someone has posted a positive comment about Qwick fit

In genral I agree with your comments, It would be intresting to know what is behind PRS's current purge, possibly working on commission ? Any thing they collect is a bonus I guess. They do seem to be Office based, if they where serious they would just drop in like the BOC bottle police do.

Cheers Aidan

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by gary fear on November 6, 2008, 6:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Gary Fear

Hi just wondered if any of you have had any follow up from the prs yet , Ive had 3 letters and my first phone call today .Has any one had a visit yet ?

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Peter Macdonald on November 6, 2008, 10:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Peter Macdonald

The last letter I got only seemed to refer to music so I emailed back their reference number and said I didn't play music. I said I sometimes hummed or sang to myself. They emailed back saying I had been taken off their contact list.
I have Radio 4 on. Should I confess that I listen to Desert Island Discs?

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Tony Sefton on November 7, 2008, 6:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"
Tony Sefton

The Performing Rights society rang me today and the message went something like this.

Hello. This is the PRS, Have you heard of us. ???

I said Yes I have,

This Conversation May be recorded for training purposes. Is that OK. ??

I said Yes.

OK So you know that we are the official body set up to collect funds for the public playing of music on business premises. ???

I said Yes.

So Do you play music on your Premises.

I said NO. As soon as I Heard that you were collecting money for listening to Radios, I told the staff that they could shove the radios up their Bottoms. So we do not listen to Radios anymore.

She Said OK. And put the phone down.

Whether that is good and clear enough for them, I have no idea but we will see what happens next.

It Is Ridiculous though that Anyone can buy CD's and Records, and they pay royalties, and they can listen to them or their friends can listen to them etc, The Staff can listen to their own Radios, I can listen to My Radio, and the customers can listen to their Radios. ?? But we can't all listen to one radio. ?????

Tony.

Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)

Posted by Dave Hill on November 8, 2008, 7:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Some Good Advise (worth checking the link)"

Tony

Had a similar "we are recording this conversation" type call last week myself.

I played dumb when they asked if I had heard about them. But when asked about the music we played in the workshop, my response was rather brisk!....

"I dont play music in the workshop!" The conversation stopped!

Who the hell do these Pratts think they are? They seem to assume that every garage in the land has a radio playing the modern inferior quality "music" for the "pleasure" of the staff & customers. (read "music & pleasure" with caution)

If I am going to pay for the "privileged" of listening to the wireless & add to the coffers of the musicians, then I would expect a rebate when it emerges that all I listen to is BBC radio 4 & the Cricket!

Do the cast of the Archers receive any royalties from this "Un audited" taxation of radio receivership?

I dont have any issue with paying for any service that I feel provides an enhancement to my business, but come on! Radio! Give me a break!

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