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Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start - Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on October 19, 2011, 7:55 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 1998
Engine Size and Code *: 2 Litre DOHC
( Optional ) ECU Type: n/k
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Bent Wire
( Optional) Fault Codes: Nil

Evening All,

This vehicle broke down today and my initial findings are that the two coils are not working.

Background: I first attended this vehicle about 6 weeks ago at a garage which had bought the vehicle as a non-runner. I diagnosed an immobiliser fault and the garage had the ECU converted to free run and the vehicle started and ran. A few days later, the vehicle broke down and I diagnosed that both coil packs were faulty. The vehicle was fuelling and the garage fitted a new crank sensor prior to my arrival. Diagnosis of faulty coil packs was by scoping the primary ignition which was good and ignition dwell which showed about 25 degrees under cranking conditions. New coils were fitted and the car started and ran. The EML was illuminated and diagnosed as camshaft sensor. A new sensor extinguished the light.

My initial quick look today showed that there was no spark to either coil and checking the ignition dwell on cranking it was approx 25 degrees again. Did not have time to scope nor check fuelling. So it appears that the two coil packs have failed yet again.

I thought it was most odd when the two coils failed together the first time and this is now beyond coincedence. Initially the spark plugs were replaced because they were well worn and I thought this may be a factor. The new coil packs are an after-market product and have no idea of make.

So what has caused the problem? On my visit today, I noticed a plug lead was too short and the connection was poor at a coil pack resulting in a big gap for the spark to jump. Could this have brought down the TWO coil packs? Could the ECU modification (free-run) cause the problem? Maybe a surge of amps down the coil positive feed?

Would welcome your thoughts.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter on October 21, 2011, 2:07 pm, in reply to "Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Message modified by board administrator October 21, 2011, 2:09 pm

Hi Pete,

what type of ignition system setup is fitted to the vehicle?

regards Mark

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 21, 2011, 3:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"

Hi Pete,

My guess is this is a two coil wasted spark system? For the coils to pack up like this I would imagine that they are remaining switched on and there for overheating and burning out (of course I have a vivid imagination

!) Have you checked the resistance of the primary coil windings to prove the fault? If this is the case then I believe the coils are switched directly by the ECU and there maybe lies your problem.

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 21, 2011, 8:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks Mark(s),

Yes I believe it is the two coil wasted spark system. I will have both the primary and secondary windings checked and see how it hangs. I can understand the scenario of overheating and burning out, but would this cause a very quick destruction of the coils? Vehicle ran fine and stopped pretty suddenly accompanied by misfires. I do not have a wiring diagram but I am convinced the coils are supplied and switched by the ECU.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by James McCallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 22, 2011, 9:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

HI Pete,
i think this system is similar to Santa Fe. If so, the coils have the transistors inside them and a signal is sent to teh base by the ECU to switch them on. Might be worth checking amps ramp with ignition coils, they may ber getting a constant current due to ECU fault.
HTH Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 26, 2011, 8:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Evening all,

Went back to the vehicle again today and measured the resistance on the primary coil circuit which was within spec at 0.5 - 0.6 0hms. However, it was open circuit on the secondary coil circuit when it should be 13k - 15k. As before, I found that the vehicle was fuelling with no spark and no fault codes. Garage has now returned the ECU to whence it came and we await results. The vehicle apparantly drove about 3 miles with the new coils before packing up.

James: Good point you make. Although I have the gear to measure amps, I would not know what to expect to see. Maybe you or someone could advise.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by james mccallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 26, 2011, 9:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi pete, I dont think you can get a secondary resistance from these coils. Primary, set up scope to measure primary voltage and primary current. The current should build up and drop off in conjunction with primary voltage signal. Have a look on PICO scop website, it gives good images. Ill try and retrieve a a scope picture from work.
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 26, 2011, 9:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks James,

I have already had a look at their site and will study it in detail later.....especially if the ECU comes back with "no fault found". Many thanks anyway.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 26, 2011, 10:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"

Hi pete,

I'm sure that I don't have to tell you how a coil works, so what does the open circuit in the secondary windings tell you?

How could this affect the primary circuit and the end stage switching of the ECU ?

Sounds like a sh?te coil pack.

Regards Mrk

Ps. The amps ramp will be controlled and depend on the resistance of the coil. V / I x R

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by James McCallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 26, 2011, 11:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Mark, if youi need a scope pic, I can do one at work for you, including amps ramp. Is it coil pack? or is it the coil feeding two cylinders, using an HT lead for the other?
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 27, 2011, 12:05 am, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Hi James,

Think you might have addressed that incorrectly. Assuming its for me, I do not wish to put you to any trouble because you might have more important things to deal with. The garage has been tardy in dealing with this and I don't feel any compulsion to put anyone out of their way. However, if you have the time, then it would be interesting to see the wave-forms. It is the coil feeding two cylinders using an HT lead.

Greetings Mark,

How does a coil work? Better grab my notes of 20 odd yrs ago

Not sure of your 2nd point, however I'm content to let it lay until that ECU comes back to me as a curved ball. However, cannot see it as a coil fault. 4 coils going down is too much of a coincidence.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by James McCallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 28, 2011, 9:44 am, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Pete, sorry i must have looked up and saw Marks name. No problems, I have a hyundai santa fe SM which has same system as your Kia. Will be there Monday. If you need help just let me know.
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 28, 2011, 6:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Mark Carter

Hi Pete,

When the ECU comes back, post the report and we can move on from there.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 28, 2011, 7:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks James and Mark. I am sincerely hoping the ECU is tested as duff and a repair is made. However, I do not expect to see it again for a day or so. In the interim, I would be interested in the ignition dwell at cranking and running if possible. Then, will have to read up on how to use my Pico amps clamp!

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 2, 2011, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Evening All,

Right, got the ECU back with a note saying no fault found. Also enclosed was a wiring diagram with a comment asking me to check supply voltage with an oscilloscope.

The two coils are earthed by the ECU and they have a common positive feed. There is a wire going from this feed to the ECU. I cannot think what the purpose of this is.

So, I wonder why he has asked for the supply voltage to be measured by an oscilloscope and not a multi-meter? Perhaps I am expected to see a sharp voltage surge which cannot be captured by a mult-meter. The voltage I recorded with ignition on was normal battery voltage. This was with the two dud coils in situ.

Anyway, garage is going to replace the dead coils and duff plug lead and I will revisit in a few days time. Would welcome your observations.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by james mccallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 2, 2011, 10:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Pete, the voltage supply from ECU is to switch transistor on inside coil. Check the earth point for coil, diagram shows it on the rh side near aircon valve. HTH jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 9:01 am, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Mark Carter

Hi Pete,

The positive is probably just a common Ignition feed.

Use an amps clamp for the monitoring I=V/R

Scope both the Primary and secondary signals and post.

The "Duff" HT lead will not have helped the problem.

Fit OE coils and leads.

Regards Mark.

Jim, as far as I know the coils are switched via the earth (by the ECU) and not the live as per your post?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by james mccallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 10:52 am, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Mark, Im going by the santa fe i have here, it is same engine and ignition. The coils have a transistor in them accordig to the wiring diagram on GSW. The feed from ecu goes to base of coil to switch coil to earth. HTH
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by james mccallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi If you let me know how to upload a file, Ill send the test procedure. It tells you to give a positive supply to coil to operate transistor before testing coil.
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 2:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Mark Carter

Hi Jim

Email me at; tisburymot@aol.com

It sounds like the coils have the endstage in them?

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Mark Carter

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the email. The way I read it is as follows;

The instructions are asking you to check the primary and secondary resistances of the coil.

The reason it is asking you to connect a THREE volt battery into the circuit is to switch on the End-stage inside the coil.

This is because the End-stage has control of the primary circuit and without turning the End-stage on the circuit would not be complete and not testable via a resistance test.

A far quicker and more reliable way of testing the primary resistance would be to use an Amps clamp.

This was the sort of circuit detail that I was talking about in my first post. How can you test something without knowing how it works?

If this is the setup on Pete's vehicle then there was no need to send the ECU away at all.

The Enable signal from the ECU can be tested with a scope. With the rest of the circuit being tested via volt drop testing or an amps clamp.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 5:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks Jim and Mark. Seems to me that you learn something everyday. I have never heard of an end-stage coil and I presume this is the transistor which Jim was talking about. Anyway, I have got the garage looking for this earth point first and to help them it would be better to know whether this is on n/s or o/s. It does not have A/C.

I have studied the LT current waveform in the Pico Library and I now wonder if I should see the same wave-form bearing in mind the type of coil I am testing. If it is, and the current is incorrect, I would then wonder why this would be. Electricity to me unfortunately is and remains a mystery apart from the very basics.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 6:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Mark Carter

Hi Pete,

Every primary coil circuit has an "end-stage" somewhere.

You could argue that the first end-stage were the Points. This was the final stage in the primary switching circuit.

Then the end-stage became an electronic switch and was fitted inside the Ignition module otherwise known as the Ignition amplifier(the little black box as fitted on the outside of the dist body of Ford Escorts in the 80's)

VM's then started fitting the end-stage inside the ECU, an example of this type of vehicle would be the Ford Focus with wasted spark.

Nowadays a lot of COP's have the End-stage built in to them.

So to sum it up the "End stage" is the electronic component that handles the current to switch the primary side of the coil.

Where it is fitted controls and sets your diagnostic route and testing plan.

If your end-stage is inside the coil, you can not scope the primary but you can look at the enable signal from the ECU.

Volt drop the feeds and earths, scope the enable signal and carry out a resistance check via an amp clamp.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 8:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks for that Mark, I appreciate your time and effort. I am now considering passing this thing on to my auto-electricain colleague because I am venturing too deep into areas where I am not confident of making a positive diagnosis. I have re-read Dave Hill's excellent article on volt-drop testing which I understand, but that combined with scoping, I fear that after a few more hours on this thing I will be left with a jumble of information which I do not understand and cannot up-load on this site. Anyway, I shall sleep on it and see how it hangs tomorrow.

Kind regards

Pete

PS: Hoping they find the broken earth point which Jim alluded to!

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by James McCALLUM <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 9:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Pete,
Ill ty and capture pic of earth point for you. Ill send test procedure. Ill scope primary with amp tomorrow. What area are you in?
HTH
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 3, 2011, 10:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks again Jim. If its easier, you can e.mail it to me at mobiletuning@hotmail.co.uk However, I would be disappointed if the tardy bunch I'm dealing with cannot find it without a picture! I am in the Scunthorpe area.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by James Mccallum <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=ukat5583' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 4, 2011, 4:14 pm, in reply to "Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
James McCallum

Hi Pete, just scoped the Santa fe. The signal to the power transistor is on for 4.8ms. The amps went to 7.5. The signal is like a digital square wave with a taper half way up then off, then starts again. I also found out we had a fault with ours, the PCM caused the coil to stay on too long and burn out the coil. HTH
Jim

Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members5.boardhost.com/ukautotalk4/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 4, 2011, 8:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Jim,

Many thanks for that. Looks like I will be fully prepared when I get to see this vehicle again!

Regards

Pete M

Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 18, 2012, 6:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Kia Sportage 2.0 1998 - Non start #"
Message modified by board administrator January 20, 2012, 9:22 am

Evening All,

I revisited this vehicle just before Xmas and set about it with my amps clamp. Checked what I could including the primary ignition and all traces checked out iaw Pico waveforms library. The garage fitted Kia coils and leads (albeit 2nd hand) and I awaited the outcome with bated breath. Visited the garage today on another mission whereupon I was informed that the vehicle has been sold and the local owner has not incurred any problems.

So, it looks like the fault lie in either faulty plugs, leads or coils. Or a combination of all three.

This was a learning process for me and I now know how to use the Amps clamp!

Thanks to all for your interest and advice.

Regards

Pete M

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