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Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) - Fixed #

Posted by Adam Critchley on August 17, 2015, 10:38 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2004
Engine Size and Code *: 3.2 z32se
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Snap on

Any suggestions on this one guys.

Bringing misfire code up 1&5 only happens on kick down over 4500rpm.

It's had a lpg conversion so access to things is even more limited than they normally are.

(Fault happens on gas and petrol)

Checked timing is correct.
Compression ok.
Found rear rocker cover was leaking into plug holes.
Replaced gasket and cover.
Checked plug gaps (only replaced last year) but swapped Over with front bank. No change

Was getting a strong spark
Fitted Bosch coil pack as customer purchased after us saying its possible but needs further testing.

Smoke tested ok.
O2 data seems ok.

Looks like going have to find a way round all lpg wiring to get in with scope

But any one seen something similar before.

Weird how it's only affecting 2 cylinders and not the 3

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Peter Mutlow on August 18, 2015, 5:05 am, in reply to "Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Peter Mutlow

Adam,

A 5 gas reading at the time of the misfire may well tell you whether it is an ignition, fuelling or engine fault. Print that and it will give us which diagnostic route to follow.

Yes,they are b......s to work on.

Best of luck.

Pete M

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Adam critchley on August 18, 2015, 8:46 am, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Adam Critchley

Hi peter

Thanks for the reply

The issue I'm having is I can't recreate a missfire in the workshop.

It will only do it at roughly 4500rpm very briefly mainly on kick down.

So it is a bit of a pain

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Peter Mutlow on August 18, 2015, 1:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Peter Mutlow

Hi Adam,

That certainly makes things more difficult. Has it got hydraulic valves? If so, I suspect a valve stick problem. If this was my problem, I would do a Forte engine flush and Gas treatment as a starter and let the customer have it for a few days and see how it goes. This will at least give you breathing space until more replies come in.

Again...best of luck

Pete M

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Adam Critchley on August 18, 2015, 9:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Adam Critchley

Customer has car and return it when I give him a shout again

He lives roughly 45 mile away so bit of a round trip for him

As much as he is a but if a pain in arse. He is also pretty
Good in that he likes genuine parts.

It's got full service using genuine oil and filters.
The plugs are some super special ones for lpg.

Probably not a bad idea to flush it anyway a suppose.

Took a look today even though wasn't acting up in workshop I
Did emissions check anyway.

Pictures as follows first is at idle second is 3500rpm

Went out for road test customer driving and me on scope.
Nothing jumped out but need to review them properly.

Will upload some images later on.

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Lee Mackintosh on August 18, 2015, 10:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Lee Mackintosh

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/Emissions/exhaust%20emissions.html

This may helpout a little.

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Peter Mutlow on August 19, 2015, 3:30 am, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Peter Mutlow

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that. The Co2 at idle looks a little low for a cat equipped car. The Co2 at fast idle is far too low and Hc way too high. I am assuming the misfire is both on petrol and Lpg. Special plugs? Is there such a thing for lpg and petrol? Never heard of that. Think I would want to put proper plugs in and see how that goes.

From my balcony drinking a cold beer in the Philippines, I suspect valve problems which I have heard can be caused by using Lpg.

But unless the plugs are approved by Vauxhall, I would change them first.

Best of luck.

Pete M

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Adam critchley on August 19, 2015, 10:00 am, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Adam Critchley

Hi lee thanks for the link will read through that shortly.

Peter- these plugs what where recommended for that car platinum lpg plugs. Think their Bosch ones

I changed the plugs a last year or year before and car just wasn't happy at all.

Was told the car should be running the plugs that are fitted with it having lpg its been running fine since until the latest episode.

The guy is happy that their could an probably is a mechanical engine issue as he's also heard of issues from running lpg

Mainly I'd like to prove it for myself so I've not got a lot of work for issue to remain.

The misfire is present on both petrol and lpg yes.

As for those readings would it affect it having twin tail pipes?

It dies go into one centre box before splitting so I'm assuming not but its worth asking the question to be sure?

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by andy pethig on August 19, 2015, 9:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Andrew Pethig

looking at the high hc and the lean lambda, it looks like a ignition related misfire, are the coil/coils the correct ones for a LPG, as the firing KV for gas can be as high as 40Kv

Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire

Posted by Adam Critchley on August 19, 2015, 10:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Vectra 3.2 v6 missfire "
Adam Critchley

Hi andy

As mentioned above they are the correct plugs for use with the lpg

Can dig out the exact part number if needed.

Coil is a genuine unit

I've got waveforms saved will try and upload them
Their saved as snap on movies so not sure they will upload or not

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam critchley on August 20, 2015, 12:19 am, in reply to "Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Anyone with shop stream and bit of soars time fancey taking a look through wave form?

Theirs a couple things I'm unsure if being a newbie a scoping.

One of cylinders has a few bits I'm not used to seeing during the burn time, would that maybe also point towards mechanical issue?

But also the same Channel looks as if it doesn't hold down the ground on dwell as much as others?

Can email the file.

I'm only one in our place who uses a scope so can't ask anyone in work advise

All help is appreciated

Adam

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Peter Mutlow on August 20, 2015, 4:56 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Peter Mutlow

Adam,

A twin tail-pipe which has been conjoined in the middle should really have one pipe covered with a rag to gain 100% accuracy. Otherwise the readings except O2 becomes slightly diluted. The 02 becomes slightly increased. However, at fast idle the difference is negligible.

Still going for valve damage caused by LPG.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by andy pethig on August 20, 2015, 9:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Andrew Pethig

adam can you do a relative compression test with your amp clamp, its a nice quick test , you could put a cylinder firing event on the second channel to work out the cylinder numbers.

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on August 21, 2015, 12:21 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

I did try that.

But the fuse that auto data suggest was fuel pump clearly wasn't as bloody thing kept starting.

And I basically ran out of time on it.

I think Itll be possibke to just reach the plugs on coil packs with long nose pliers so when I'm back in work. ( yes I am sad thinking about a car on my time off haha)

Will do that and do relevetive conpression test.
Before stripping to take a look with transducer

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on August 21, 2015, 12:27 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Took a few photos on my phone from the waveforms

[/URL

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by andy pethig on August 21, 2015, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"

is this system a waste spark ?

because , if not the high firing lines on the first and third wave forms indicate a lean/ no fuel condition

also do you have a vacuum gauge you can use to see if the needle bounces when the engine miss fires, as this would indicate a valve timing issue or burnt valve

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam critchley on August 23, 2015, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Not actually sure if runs waste spark or not

I'm sure it doesn't.

Do have a vac gauage will try that

Will test the front bank coil and post up comparrison to see

Will get car back in later on this week

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by adam critchley on September 18, 2015, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

now back from holiday

got this thing back now, given him my spare car so got it for couple days

did quick relative compression and looks like this

is that where my issue will be do we think?

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by andy pethig on September 18, 2015, 10:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Andrew Pethig

looks like you are there with that wave form , use a second channel and grab the kv lead (only if you have a coil pack and leads) and use the firing event on no 1 cylinder to work out the cylinder numbering. so you can tie the wave form to the misfiring cylinders.

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on September 18, 2015, 10:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

It's coil on plug with coil pack being located under the upper manifold so not easiest to get at.

Tested relative by using scan tool to activate conpression test so.

Tried to back probe coil pack and couldn't get anything.

Disconnect fuel pump fuse and car will start and run for 2-3 seconds everytime so makes it a pain to try and grab a sync.

Went on a road test and captured front and rear banks with fault happening.

Going to lift upper manifold in morning going to get transducer in and see if can see whats going on

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Lee Mackintosh on September 19, 2015, 12:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Lee Mackintosh

Can't you disconect fuel pump and remove fuel feed hose, don't see how it can run withoit fuel.

Is it not possibe to take a sync at the ecu (coil driver circuit) or is the loom accessable anywhere.

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by andrew pethig on September 19, 2015, 4:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Andrew Pethig

when you do compression test via scan tool , it opens the throttle plate and cuts out the injectors, you can do the sync then.
but to be honest you may as well pull the inlet and get the transducer in there any way.

have fun..

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam critchley on September 19, 2015, 10:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Thanks for the advise guys took a better look at this today

Struggled to see abything with transducer even when restricting intake

Have got some waveforms I'll post up incase some of the more experienced ones can spot something on it for fortune reference.

But did a normal compression test.
dry test
Cyl 1 140
Cyl 3 200
Cyl 5 205

Cyl 2 200
Cyl 4 200
Cyl 6 190
Wet test

Cyl 1 170
Cyl 3 220
Cyl 5 205

Cyl 2 210
Cyl 4 210
Cyl 6 210

I set number 1 cyl to tdc compression.
I haven't got a leak down tester so put smoke machine In. In hope to simulate something similar

I had smoke coming out of number 5 plug hole
Cyl 5 being on exhaust stroke.

This suggested to me burnt exhaust valves.

Anyone else think different?

So it's left on ramp partially stripped stripped ready for head to come off on Monday at some point

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on September 22, 2015, 7:55 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Thanks for help and advise guys got the offending head off yesterday

the offending valve out
Also found the cat has fell apart too

So the customer has agreed to lift front head and take a look those valves too

For reference anyone needing a cat for one of these they where never released into afternarjet and dealers have stopped selling them!

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Ian Baxter on September 22, 2015, 8:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Ian Baxter

Where will you get a replacement cat from ?

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on September 22, 2015, 9:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Customer got a second hand one

Not an ideal but the situation meant left with little other choice.
Varrying opinions on getting one remanductered so that on its own could cause issues.

He's aware of the risks of using a second hand part but it looks ok and he got it pretty good price tbh

So will just have to hope it's ok when I put it all back together.

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Ian Baxter on September 23, 2015, 7:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Ian Baxter

Hello Adam,
By no means criticising you

How scary, an 04 car with unobtainable cats

You done well

Ian

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Eddie Zyla on September 24, 2015, 9:19 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"

Adam, as the vehicle is fitted with LPG it no longer needs a cat for its MOT, it may be tested without and would pass if below 3.5% co and 1200 ppm hc. Visually the tester may require that it appears to be in place and you may wish to remap the ECU so it ignores the post cat lambda.

I suspect the vehicle has further issues when running on LPG that may have caused both these faults, we have carried out several conversions to these and they are not straight forward.

Regards Eddie Zyla.
CRD Performance Bolton.

Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #

Posted by Adam Critchley on September 28, 2015, 10:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Adam Critchley

Hi Eddie thanks for the reply

I don't deal with lpg myself the customer does how ever use someone else to deal with that side of things so ive told him to arrange for them to take a look check it's correctly set up and lubricated properly etc

the mapping O2 and cat out will be something to bare in mind for future

Fixed #

Posted by Adam critchley on October 3, 2015, 7:19 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Vectra 3.2 V6 Z32SE 2004 - Misfire around 4,500 rpm (gas and petrol) #"
Edited by board administrator October 5, 2015, 2:38 pm

Car all built up 30 mile road test carried out

And drives great,
Needed 11 exhaust valves due to putting so just changed all 12.

Customer went through paper work and it had been gas converted at 22k so not bad for vakves to last 100k on gas.

Thanks for all the help guys

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