And that's for just a set of brake pads!

Oh the pleasures of the motor trade.

Regards

JW

Tyre pressure monitoring facility for Renault will be on CD6 in December

Andy

I've come across a even worse one than this.

A friend of mine does tech training for Audi, and he has been involved with the launch of the new A8 (when it was new!!)

He was telling me that even simple componens such as the battery have to be coded into the vehicle to enable the smart charging system to manage battery charge and discharge rates.

The logic goes something like: If the battery has certain charge/discharge and capaciy rates then the system has to know exactly what type of battery is fitted, because, if the system has to start to shut down (for example if the alternator stopped working, or if one of the systems developed an unquenchable thirst for current) the system has to know when bad really is bad.

An example is if a smaller than recognised battery was fitted to the system (without being coded in), then all of the fancy info-tainment (DVD, gigabitmultitronicsurroundsoundnaigationsystem, TV's etc..) would coninue to 'waste' the available batery capacity, beyond what was needed to make it home (or at least to safety or to warn the driver of an imminent failure).

This would never do, therefore the vehicle is programmed to know when bad really is bad.

You can take this a step further. As new vehicles are using electronically controlled cooling systems (to enable optimum engine operating temperature to be achieved - in search of reduced emissions) with water cooled alternators (which are capable of servicing nearly two kilowatts - and that's why they're water cooled), a battery mismatch could lead to a catostrophic vehicle failure .

The next time I hear a customer give me the old "...and can you change the points and set the timing..." I think that I'll have to burst into a verse of '...those were the days my friend, I thought they'd never end......'

Cheers for now.

James

P.S. getting a bit of a sweat on now, two posts in so many days - getting back to be just like the good ole days. Fingerblistertastic!

We can only trust that the likes of SP will continue to provide us with updated diagnostics and associated maintenance software.

I think they are doing a good job in difficult circumstances so far (and at a reasonable price!)

Regards,

Steve

Only for interest, but just in case you didn't know..

The only requirement for pressure monitoring is as Phil says.. when you change the front to the back you will need to re-code the transponders.

These sensors are battery operated and send a signal to the ECU at either 12mph if moving or every hour if stationary.

If a tyre becomes deflated or a tyre is replaced, once the tyre has been re-inflated to within accepted pressure parameters and the vehicle exceeds 12mph, the ECU will reset itself and the MIL light will go out. However, if you damage the valve during tyre replacement, a new valve would be required and would need re-coding.

If you changed the front tyres to the rear and you chose not to re-code the sensors, if you had a puncture on the right hand rear.. your puncture would show right hand front instead. The engine management light would also stay on until re-coded.

For information. replacing the valve through an official Renault dealer would cost :

£22.00 + vat for the transponder valve
£3.95 + vat for a fitting kit?
£53.05 + vat for removing the faulty valve/ refit and re-code.

The only test our engineers haven't carried out is what happens if a 'blow out' occurs.. does the car go into limp home mode? We will let you know what happens next week!

Regards

Andy Amor

regards
steve

What about saving us the cost of the mag and giving us a small insight to the said Monster.

Regards

John Wallis

Your local factor should have coppies of PMM Avalable on the counter.

I know Partco, Pages and Lucas have them and they are FREE!!!!

Mike

http://www.techonline.com/community/member_company/member/feature_article/896/content_35492

Well, now that your 'out of the closet' so to speak I'm sure your input will bring an interesting dimension to the forums. Many of us have known for a while that the days of aftermarket tools are numbered.
I believe changes at government level are needed to prevent the manufacturers hiding behind excuses like 'we can't tell you that because its part of the security system'.
Are you suggesting aftermarket toolmakers have access to data/software that will give us more functionality, but they just don't develop it ?
Or are they giving us what they have within the limits of what they have access too ?

Is it not the VM's that need to be pressured to release the info ?

Dave F

Good to see you on this Forum As Dave has already said I am sure you have a lot to offer a group such as this.

Regarding your comments on scantools, Take at look at my reply to Chris Angus on the scanner board it reinforces what you say about aftermarket verses OE tools.

Mike

It is my beleif that the aftermarket tool makers can easily give us the extra functions we require, But they dont think they are important or feel they have other priorities. I am not suggesting the Software Engineers job is easy but Providing the extra functions we require is no harder than the other functions we already have.

Mike

---------------------------------------------------

Article in “Professional Motor Mechanic”, December 2005 Issue
Written by Frank Massey [Trouble Shooter Article]

I have often written about successful jobs through our workshop, so I think it only fair to write about why we enjoy a high degree of success; it's often called experience, or knowing when to stop before failure. Recently we were offered a repair to a Porsche 928 S4 with an ABS fault. Upon first impressions this was not Dr Ferdinand's finest hour: the driver's door window did not operate and the internal trim suggested a catalogue of equally less discerning previous owners. With no serial capability at our disposal we opted to test for the most likely problems: 'the wheel sensors', which, like all Porsche designs, were easy to reach and test. We scoped the outputs and quickly ruled out any problems at the road wheels; however, wiring problems and the need to now concentrate at the ABS module, led us to the n/s foot well.
The module and the main relay fuse panel are accessed on the forward
bulkhead. Removing the wooden floor panel revealed one of my greatest fears -the relay panel looked more like a bowl of noodles, attacked by a plague of enthusiastic, but not so skilful electricians, whose only desire was to use up Halfords' entire stock of scotch locks (see below). So faced with my greatest fear -failure - and with every intention that this vehicle was not one on which I would fail, we refused the work.

HIGH COST
Upon ringing the garage explaining the reason we refused to continue – i.e.
high cost, with the probability of uncovering other problems through
poor connections and no doubt being blamed for every fault on the car -I was curious when told, “Oh yes, we know about the problem with the fuse box; I have yet to repair the electric windows.” With that I offered a few words of encouragement: "Good Luck".

The story that illustrates why electronics would make or break many garages involves a BMW M3 Coupe and contrasts very nicely with the previous Porsche. One of my recent concerns was the influx of the plug and play cowboys, armed with a scan tool, a van full of spares and a telephone diary full helpful friends' phone numbers. (Do not confuse these with genuine highly skilled mobile technicians!) It did not threaten my business directly but undermined our ability to market genuine skill to the public and other garages. However, our recent association with a leading company and the acquisition of their brilliant software platform has allowed to access customers who would normally use the main dealerships or otherwise be turned away because of the complex relationship between serial interface and diagnostic logic. In plain English, using serial data to determine cause and symptoms.
The M3 is a high performance power plant using Vanos or variable electro/hydraulic cam timing control. The camshaft sprockets are connected to the camshafts via a helical gear arrangement which in turn are brought in and out of mesh using hydraulic pistons controlled by solenoids (not dissimilar to ABS), thus causing the camshafts to be adjusted independently of each other and the crankshaft (see opposite page).
The vehicle's problem: poor idle, lumpy with excessive emissions but top end performance was normal. So how the hell did we end up looking at Vanos when the problem could have been a dozen other faults?
I served my apprenticeship as a specialist engine builder, so therefore I feel comfortable with mechanical as well as electronic diagnostic procedures. However, in this case my background would have been no help without the expert level of software at our disposal.
Not forgetting our usual and important preparation procedures – ¬inspecting the plugs, scoping the coils and confirming the ignition profile against lambda and air mass meter outputs ¬our attention soon directed us to a mechanical problem: poor vacuum and high HC's. This could, however, have been an injector problem and these symptoms are identical to poor atomisation or fuel quantity error.

SERIAL DATA

The next course of action was to examine serial data in detail; we had previously noted no DTC's or obvious serial errors. Moving through to software, we conducted actuator tests to the electro-hydraulic actuators, which appeared to operate normally. However, we noted in the Vanos live data directory that the exhaust cam position, actual vis desired, was in error to the tune of -30° whilst the inlet differential was less than 1°.
This then gave rise to the probability of a Vanos mechanical control error. Removing the Vanos unit, dismantling and examination confirmed a piston and seal failure in the exhaust hydraulic port, allowing the all-important pressure, which drives the piston into the correct mechanical position to leak.
The Vanos assembly, by the way, is £1,000. The customer who had recently been unsuccessful with her local BMW dealership is now a customer for life, thanks to the excellent diagnostic equipment, software, skill and investment. So my advice to genuine businesses out there: set yourself apart from the cowboys and follow our lead; we are only going to get one shot at this technological revolution.

--------------------------------------------------

Picture referred to [Halfords] contains 5 Scotch Locks and a couple of joints besides...

Will post that if required...
E.

The problem as I see it is the aftermarket tool manufacturers have missed the boat. In the case of Autodiagnos, which incidentally I still belive is the best aftermarket tool on the market at the moment, had a head start on all the others and were giving us features that no other dared to but at the expense of some basic functions that really should have been included. But alas with time they seem to have lost there way and the serious players who were their core supporters have had to re-invest in other equipment to fill the gaps left by Autodiagnos. Mainly OE or the likes of specialist gear like Autologic. They have now had to bow to falling sales and reduce their full kit price drastically. this coupled with lack of development means they will now struggle to give us the functions we need.

In my opinion they should have kept their eyes on the ball. Three years ago they were talking about giving us passthrough, Where is it? Two years ago they were talking about giving us ECU matching on all apps, Where is it?

They should have kept the price of the tool High set subs at a higher rate and concentrated on making the tool a very near dealer tool.

I would much rather have paid AD £600 pa for an excellent tool with lots of improvements than pay them and other companies £350 a yr for poor quality updates and functions.

But it is too late now as we have re-invested and will be reluctant to pay more to AD, which sadly means they may never be able to recoup enough to make any drastic improvements.

My thoughts and opinions I hope I am wrong

Mike

I don't see any aftermarket scan tool manufacturer with a strong vision! just short term lucrative profits! the problem as Frank has high lighted which many of us already know, is their profits will ultimately become our business failure long term...... period!

Aftermarket scan tool companies are able to purchase OEM software for their own use, this is costly and would mean their lucrative quick buck will be no longer.

Its clear to me, my house needs putting in order, like many here i bought into certain aftermarket tool manufactures philosophy's built on very unsafe foundations! its simple science! the aftermarket has to become more specific about their business activities, unless you want to fall of the cliff with the short sighted.....

Darren Winsley.

I Don't think the Salesmen and Tool manufacturers actually realise the Importance of being able to complete a job, The Salesmen get told what the tool can do, ( And try to sell it on those Merits ) but they don't usually know what it can't. ( Until after they have Banked our Money and we have Tried the tool on various jobs ) That is where our Problem starts, After we have wasted several hours checking a job out to find that the Tool that we have just paid several thousand pounds for cannot do the job and it means taking it to the dealer or trying to find someone else that has a tool that will finish the job.

I believe aftermarket toolmakers won't invest in the development unless the market is big enough, so do we need more garages buying scan tools for this to happen ? Would this threaten your business ? I doub't it, one very clever man once said to me its the singer not the song, and I believe thats true.
The other route as we've said is dealer tools, but, once comitted to this we are also vunerable to them changing things or discontinuing them altogether. Not a huge cost prob for the big players but a business shaking one for the smaller ones, especially if you are going to be subscribed to several dealer tools/software.

Question for Frank. Being an industry leader, and mindful of the fact that we are all each others competition, do you think we have arrived at a place where unity is the way forward ? Would you lead such a unity ?
Or is your presence/comments here a clever way to drum up enough interest/fear for us to go and look at your website at the training/tools you offer ? I mean this with the greatest respect Frank so please don't think I'm being challenging, but now that you've got our attention, what now ?

Dave F

Martin
Nice to see you share your x431 and ACR4 with your mate, I think Sharing is going to be the only cost affective way to cover the makes for most of us (ie one garage buys the far eastern gear and the other european). But then you need the trust factor.
Kevin.

There does not seem to be much of a response to your article from the January Professional Motor Mechanic magazine, i would put this down to the fact that you are only reaching a minority of technicians and garage owners in the UK. It seems this publication is not available to everyone because we do not buy our parts from the "CORRECT" Motor Factor

This is a great shame as i have just received a copy (for the first time ever) direct from the publishers and it does make interesting reading

It seems the distribution is "POLITICAL", if your factor does not sell the brand of parts advertised in the magazine or a member of the correct buying group, then they are excluded from keeping and sending out copies to workshops

I presently buy my parts from the Camberley Motor Factor group, but they do not keep the magazine, i would have to jump ship and buy parts from A.R.E to get a copy

So until this magazine is FREE to ALL, then i suspect your time and articles are just gathering dust on motor factor floors (a great shame). If you have any influence with the publishers, perhaps a quiet word to make sure we can ALL have a copy

All the best

Peter

PS: Perhaps the Motor factors should lighten up a bit, think of the customers for once

PP Jean Massey (Frank is at home today preparing for the Seminar next week)

PMM is a great magazine for both readers and advertisers alike and is growing in popularity due to its interesting content.

I believe that if you subscribe to it, it will cost you money but if you're lucky enough to get one delivered by your local Motor Factor, you get it free ??? Not all Motor Factors get an allocation and I'm not sure that Partco / Brown brothers distribute it anymore?

Unfortunately, this magazine usually ends up as 'Counter Fodder', expecting the customer to pick one up when he or she visits the branch, but customers who never visit their local branch will probably never get one delivered.

It's only the good branches that actually think about distributing PMM amongst the chaos of delivering parts.

Having spent nearly 6 years visiting Independent and National Motor Factors, as you say Peter..you can normally find them with the plastic banding still around them holding the office door open. This is in no way Hamerville's fault... but I do see it as their problem, as this excellent magazine is not reaching its intended audience.

As Jean has mentioned, Oliver has now subscribed to UKAT (Although he's not in the database? ) maybe he can clarify PMM's routes of distribution.

Andy Amor