Posted by dereklane
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Posted by dereklane
Re: I haven't seen the video, but here are my arguments against going vegan Archived Message
on November 14, 2019, 5:19 pm, in reply to "I haven't seen the video, but here are my arguments against going vegan"
Thanks, a strong riposte. In my experience there are no great permaculture veg systems that don't involve animals. And like everything, they become part of the system (so breeding, food, or even for the odd ones, pets). Any systems that say they are permaculture and don't use animals import materials in set up (environmentally unethical for the places these things come from, because you're removing value from the soil elsewhere to add it where you are). It doesn't work. All current cropping done commercially which feed the masses are worse environmentally than most current livestock systems which feed the masses. The trouble is we look at the worst cases (like feedlot cattle yards in the us) and compare them to best cases (like well thought out permaculture veg and fruit). What were actually dealing with is bad (terrible) in respect to bank owned (or equivalent ) big farming. If we compare the worst livestock farming with nearly all arable farming on a commercial scale the environmental damage is probably similar.
The best argument for veganism is that you don't like the cruelty which I can get behind even if I don't comply. Past that I don't think it measures up in favour of veganism in our current systems. If we're talking about changing those systems, all facets need massive change. Removing livestock and dairy won't fix it and would probably make the state of the land everywhere poorer. Natural manure would be replaced by more npk , less microbial action, less wooded areas, less meadows, less wildlife (as you say, rabbits, badgers, moles, all the things farmers who grow animals can live with even if they don't want to). We do of course need veg too, but if I was promoting ethical farming practise I'd be starting with trying to reform that first. It really is dire.
As an aside, I grew up in a water challenged area with no mains water and the only supply was a small dam and water tanks. And yet, the family farm was a dairy. Newer rules and regulations meant parlours had to be washed down daily (rather than twice yearly!) . Water consumption went up of course and forced the small families out in favour of the big corporations. If we want a starting point for positive long term sustainability, this is perhaps a good one.