- Re: I haven't seen the video, but here are my arguments against going vegan Archived Message
Posted by mack
on November 16, 2019, 9:05 pm, in reply to "Re: I haven't seen the video, but here are my arguments against going vegan"
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You're doing exactly what dereklane describes up there. Comparing the worst of animal production with some mythical full organic crop farming utopia. I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm describing the reality of current practises in the need to subsidize grazed animals in order to meet the outrageous demand for meat. Making claims about the lovely topsoil that arises from grazing is just bollocks if you look at the way it's actually being done. There you'll see erosion, compaction, degradation, removal of hill top vegetation, increased risk of flooding; a green desert monoculture no better than a ploughed field growing arable crops year on year. It could be beneficial, but that would require a complete shift to smaller operations with holistically managed lot grazing. That reality is that one third of arable land is set aside to make up the shortfall because grazing alone cannot support supply for the demand. That's a lot of arable land doing what you claim is turfing out mice and such, only the food being grown there is used to feed animals instead of people, but the effects are the same, so it's not really an argument you can reasonably use, is it? Also, this is what I said: No till, organic, holistic management of mixed systems, that's the way to go. How you got from that to some mythical full organic crop farming utopia I really can't see. It's you who's painting the myth of pastoral practises such as they are being beneficial, when the reality is they're mostly detrimental to diversity and ecosystemic health. If we have to import lamb from New Zealand (personally I only eat British meat and don't struggle to find it at any time of year) then why can they get it so right there when they supposedly can't in Wales? There is no 'if'. We do import lamb from NZ - it travels a massive distance, about as far as you can go, so it was simply a counter point to your argument on importing out of season veg. A case of pot and kettle, I'd say. New Zealand is a pretty big country with a pretty small population relative to its size. There are huge areas of pastoral land where grazing is absolutely appropriate, though it's not without its problems. If we wnat to be more locally minded, then shifting lamb 12000 miles isn't fitting the bill. Just because land is being overused and they need to import food to compensate doesn't mean you can't use the land properly and not have to do that. Ruminants have been living on Earth for millions of years without anyone feeding them grains. Yes, ruminants have lived for millions of years on Earth, but only in the last few thousand have they been converted into a commodity. Now there are 7 billion people who all want a hamburger. It's no longer large herds of migratory wild beasts going where the grass grows, it's all different, so you can't make that comparison fairly. Again, unless you mimic those movements with holistically managed lot grazing then you're comparing apples and lychees (imported, ofcourse). The reason we need to import is because local production cannot meet demand - the problem is inherent in the demand which speaks to all kinds of other issues like over population and cultural mores. There's a simple message there: if your land can't support the demand, then something has to give. And it will. Yes, meat is perishable, although you can also dry and cure it in ways you can't do with fresh vegetables. Mainly though, as I already said, you can slaughter an animal at any time of year. You can't harvest many tomatoes in the UK in February. That's not the best example. You can dry tomatoes too, so you don't need to pick them in February. We also have some other techniques, like canning, which probably out performs curing in terms of longevity. Beans are also easily dried and stored. Potatoes and most other root veg keep for months in the right conditions. But again, for all those things with a short shelf life, there's canning. And I'm quite partial to a pickle, too. Then there's the fruit...pretty much all of which can be dried as well. Ditto mushrooms. And so on. I should be clear that I'm not a vegan, I eat a vegetarian diet with the addition of fish and sea food (though some sea bounty I won't eat, like octopus for eg.). My rule for myself is that if you can't kill it and prep it yourself, then don't eat it. I'm making an argument against your case because what you're essentially arguing for seems like a horror show to me. It's a pretty extreme position, a kind of monoculture, while I'd counsel for mixed systems (where relevant, which is almost anywhere) on smaller farms and smaller fields, wholly organic and with a high importance placed on diversity. Animals would play a crucial part that system, just in case you were wondering. Cheers |