- OffG and MoA debate C19 Archived Message
Posted by Tomski
on April 22, 2020, 7:33 pm
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https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/04/it-is-not-authoritarian-to-support-quarantine-measures-it-just-makes-sense.html#more It Is Not 'Authoritarian' To Support Quarantine Measures - It Just Makes Sense Yesterday James Corbett of The Corbett Report interviewed Kit Knightly of Off-Guardian about the corona crisis. At 18:30 minutes in Corbett finds it "disturbing" that some of the blogs who usually criticize governments, like Moon of Alabama, support the measures governments have taken to lower the speed of the novel coronavirus epidemic. Corbett then highlights a discussion on Twitter between me and the Off-Guardian account. It started with this: vanessa beeley @VanessaBeeley - 5:33 UTC · Apr 9, 2020 #BillGates funded World Health Organisation advocate forced removal of family members fm homes if "tested" positive for #COVID19 even tho test is not proven reliable. So, govts hve corralled us in homes & will now unlawfully raid & extract citizens under poss. false pretext. I retweeted that and remarked: Moon of Alabama @MoonofA - 22:30 UTC · Apr 9, 2020 China did this in phase 2 of the Wuhan quarantine because it was the only way to protect the families from their infected members. Without that policy Wuhan would not have ended the epidemic. Current test reliability is relativ high if test is immediate used when symptoms appear. OffGuardian retweeted my tweet and launched the discussion: OffGuardian @OffGuardian0 - 10:54 UTC · Apr 9, 2020 Surely your not actually advocating the forced removal of “infected” people from their homes against their will? #COVID19 #coronavirus MoonofA: To separate infected from non-infected people is the ONLY way to stop such an epidemic. OffGuardian: So let’s be totally clear. You believe the govts - the same ones who have lied us into wars, murdered innocents and destroyed the environment - should have the power to invade our homes and take away apparently healthy people whom they “SUSPECT” of being infected? MoonofA: Our governments already have the right to do so under certain circumstances. An epidemic which threatens the health of all is one of them. OffGuardian: That is not an answer. Do YOU believe these corrupt govts, which you have been opposing for so many years, should be able to enter people’s homes and take away people they claim to “suspect” of being infected? MoonofA: I support quarantine measures during epidemics. We have had these for many centuries for good reasons. We should again use them. OffGuardian: You support arrest and detention for people the govt claims to suspect MAY have a virus that - according to official estimates - is harmless or mild for 80-99% of those infected. You do. MoA. Former champion of human rights and justice. Have you lost your mind? MoonofA: You are framing a measure that protects your and other families as "arrest" and "detention". It is neither of those. OffGuardian: Oh ok. So, should the people ‘suspected’ of being infected be allowed to leave when they choose? If your answer is ‘no’, then this IS arrest and detention and you are hiding behind blurry language. As it made no sense to continue I stopped to respond. Later Mark Sleboda jumped in to support my view: Mark Sleboda @MarkSleboda1 - 5:02 UTC · Apr 9, 2020 Replying to @OffGuardian0 and @MoonofA Leviathan - save me and mine from such fools. Another discussion between OffGuardian and him unfolded from that. OffGuardian seemed to become a bit desperate when it then tweeted this nonsense: OffGuardian @OffGuardian0 - 19:14 UTC · Apr 9, 2020 Replying to @MarkSleboda1 @ghigoberni and @MoonofA So you would support indefinite detention for anyone who may be carrying flu virus then. It’s a lot more dangerous to healthy people and children than #covid19, as any epidemiologist will tell you. I have not heard of any epidemiologist who has claimed that. But maybe I am reading the wrong ones. This graphic though from the British Office of National Statistics does not look like a flu outbreak:  The same ONS data was used by the Financial Times to produce this probably better visual:  The few high blue dots around December/January time frame show exceptionally bad flu seasons like the London flu of 1972. Similar charts from other countries show the same effect for current covid-19 outbreaks. Without control measures like the current lock-downs the red line would certainly go through the roof. The covid-19 disease the novel coronavirus causes is not a "flu". We largely do have 'herd immunity' against the flu. But this is a new virus causing a new disease. Nearly nobody is yet immune against it. It works in ways we are still just beginning to understand and there is no established therapy. If we let this epidemic run wild without any control measures the death toll will be exceptionally high. The death per infection rate in Germany is currently estimated to be 0.53% (via Christian Drosten). It may be higher in other countries. That looks like a small number but remember that nearly no one has yet acquired immunity. It would probably take a year for the epidemic to run through a whole country. Great Britain, with a population of some 60 million, would be theoretically looking at 300.000 excess death within one year. But the health care system would completely break down and thereby vastly increase the total death toll as there would be no care for most of the critical covid-19 patients and no beds for the usual other cases. That may already happen as Britain is now estimated to already have 41,000 excess death from the current epidemic. Current estimates say that 2 to 3% of the population have so far developed anti-bodies against the virus. They likely give some immunity but we do not know how long that will hold. Should this epidemic have weather dependent waves the first one will likely end during the summer. Model calculations show that only some 6-7% of the population would by then have acquired immunity. A second wave will then come during the winter. It will be worse as it will start everywhere at the same time and will come on top of the yearly flu season. We will then likely again need some harsh control measure like temporary lock-downs and case quarantains. Now back to the Off-Guardian and Corbett critique. My view on the epidemic was always based on science. You can follow how it developed through the list of posts attached to this one. As I watched how China defeated its outbreak I had hoped that other governments would take similar measures. With globally concerted action we could have completely erased this disease! But one slips into a pandemic with the governments one has, not with the ones one wishes for. Will our 'elites' use the crisis to further enrich themselves. Sure. Will they abuse some of the control measures? That is practically guaranteed. And it does not change a damned thing with regards to the pandemic. It is now too late to defeat it by eradicating its source. Social distancing measures like lock-downs are needed to keep the epidemic under control and to not overload our health care systems. Should the next outbreak wave be worse than the current one we will need even harsher measures than we currently have. I will support those because I know that they will save lives. If that makes me an 'authoritarian' in the view of some then let it be so. I for one find it more useful to tell people to make and wear masks than to post 'expert opinions' (scroll down) from PR-company sites which disagree with the scientific mainstream while their estimates of the total death toll have already been exceeded. |