Re: Free speech and discussion ... without acrimony, ad hom and labels Archived Message
Posted by walter on December 27, 2018, 12:02 pm, in reply to "Free speech and discussion ... without acrimony, ad hom and labels"
Yes we do have history, Margo. >>I refer to this, because I feel, Walter, that you sometimes appear to infer that I do not understand and/or reject all intersectional and identity theory and am merely a "class warrior" (sic). The writers you cited were in that bracket, as have those in most of the recent discussions which attempted to trash it. Sorry if you're wrongly splashed, but you persist in posting these one-sided, thinly veiled swipes. More on 'class warrior' below, I think you put on that cloak yourself and are now complaining it's unfair. I said this earlier: "I see no discussion or critique of intersectionality nor any indication it's understood by any of its assailants." >>I feel that's an unfair description, given the context of my archived articles dating back over two years which showed that I (and others) did discuss and critique the theory. I remember you introduced the subject to the board, must have been a couple of years ago. I wasn't involved in this angle then, but I vaguely remember it was reasonable stuff, probably good. Nevertheless, that's an unfair accusation, as the posts I was criticizing bore little relation to that good material. My objection to them was that they were one sided and partisan; also, empty of content. Many have been juvenile, vacuous or vicious. >>That's why I asked you, Walter, to refrain from using that snippy "class warrior" label, which I take as ad hom. I don't see the connection and in any case I do not see the class warrior as snippy. As I say, you put the cloak on yourself. Have I called you a class warrior? If not then you should be aware that the term certainly applies to many people. In particular, it applies to anyone who can write the four quotes I responded to in this post: http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/msg/1545838741.html You highlighted these quotes yourself. As for adhom, I would be more inclined to take this comment seriously if you didn't so happily endorse personal attacks on me, like the ridiculous ones by Ken and Turtleman. >>You didn't acknowledge my request and appeared to double down, accusing me of "doing" and "promoting" some unnamed, presumably nefarious stuff, somehow linked with "war" between "activists". For the record: I take exception to the inferences. The stuff you were clearly promoting clearly (and fairly explicitly) attempts to 'reclaim' the activist agenda and exclude 'ID politics'. >>I asked for clear explanation but haven't received it: I'm still confused as to what I'm supposedly "doing" and "promoting" when I link to articles (in the public domain) which broaden/ deepen or fail to address this subject which arises on the LBN board, from time to time. You have received it, just not in that particular reply. I addressed some of the material you highlighted. As you appear to have some understanding of the subject, why post anything so one-sided at all? >>When I posted a link to Fisher's piece, I did so because I presume this board is a place where people are open to discussing a broad range of ideas not carried by media, a place of free speech. RhisG didn't like it, and said so, no ad hom. I don't believe I did engage in adhom, though inevitably I respond to criticism. >>But when you didn't like it (and you're absolutely free to hate it), Walter, you immediately headlined your posts with 'no substance', 'terrible' and then progressed, in short order, to applying a 'class warrior' label to the post. I don't regard 'class-warrior' as derogatory, especially when I have said the material is one-sided. But naked, one-sided hostility to other activism was being passed off as sharing ideas. Basically, I saw no substance there. It's aimed at the converted. And you know this yourself. >>About a year ago, Walter, I was offended when you didn't seem to want to hear anything I said when I tried to share what I was hearing from the women around me - in the streets and at lectures held at one of the country's leading universities - during South Africa's 2016/17 socio-political upheavals. I don't know if it's deliberate, but it seemed to me that you don't seem to replay the discussion or parts of it accurately and we spend the time discussing the replays. I acknowledged that it could be me. If it's any consolation: of the posters to whom I made this request, it was only you that I couldn't be sure was resorting to deliberate shenanigans when whatever point had been argued and they didn't want to accept the logical outcome of the discussions. Either way, our discussions end the same - like this one. If this request of mine over a year was so aggravating it's a pity you have to embroider it to victimize yourself more clearly. Even in this discussion, look how you latched on to Ken's ridiculous portrayal, appearing not even to notice that it was based on nothing, and that I had given it a complete rebuttal. That doesn't suggest that you are only here to have constructive debate or to exchange ideas. And Turtleman's innuendos? You went out of your way to negate my legitimate complaint about those. >>It felt like you did not value or want to know about my 'lived experience' and just wanted to shut me down on the subject. You got very annoyed with me, as I remember. As you've reminded me again in this thread, you even went so far as to specifically ask me then to never address or interact with you again. Nope. My request related to gender posts and related insult nonsense. I said no explicitly. A final point - I see you twice impute that I was angry or annoyed but it seems to me that you are taking our interactions the worse of the two of us. As I said - you have to play a straight bat yourself Margo, then none of this will occur, Honestly, it won't. You can post very well, just don't try to 'win' every discussion or put your story or gripes at the centre of it, or adopt postures - I don't think it plays well, at least the way it comes out. You're an academic not a street fighter, just rely on your arguments, experience and information, these are your strongest assets. No hard feelings from me either. Cheers
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Message Thread: | This response ↓
- Disband the Left? - dovetailjoint December 25, 2018, 1:44 pm
- whats left of the left - west virginia December 25, 2018, 3:14 pm
- Re: Disband the Left? - turtleman December 25, 2018, 3:41 pm
- You're confusing the official left with the real left - Keith-264 December 25, 2018, 4:02 pm
- Why would fraudsters choose to disband? - Ken Waldron December 25, 2018, 6:29 pm
- "Capitalist liberals masquerading as revolutionaries"? - margo December 26, 2018, 6:39 am
- But notice, M, how these IDpol-questioners use the same jargonish language that turns off so many - Rhisiart Gwilym December 26, 2018, 9:29 am
- Nothing of substance there Margo - walter December 26, 2018, 11:55 am
- Re: "Capitalist liberals masquerading as revolutionaries"? - turtleman December 26, 2018, 5:06 pm
- Good post - Bluefool December 27, 2018, 10:13 am
- Re: Disband the Left? The 'left' which preserves identities shaped and distorted by capital? - margo December 26, 2018, 9:15 am
- This isterrible too Margo (nm) - walter December 26, 2018, 12:36 pm
- Pilger et al on ID politics - Tomski December 26, 2018, 1:00 pm
- Re: Pilger et al on ID politics - walter December 26, 2018, 2:05 pm
- Walter, re your oft-used phrase " class warriors" - margo December 26, 2018, 3:04 pm
- Walter, I presume you're happy with Guardian coverage of women's issues... - margo December 26, 2018, 3:37 pm
- Re: Pilger et al on ID politics - Tomski December 26, 2018, 3:48 pm
- "Almost the worst discussions ever here, if memory serves. Embarrassingly bad" - Willem December 26, 2018, 10:00 pm
- Thanks, Tomski, good to hear Pilger on this [nm] - margo December 26, 2018, 3:12 pm
- Sorry you feel this way, W. Would be good if you address points rather than issue one-word disdain? - margo December 26, 2018, 2:49 pm
- The left is by definition not banded, its peer-2-peer. Nm - Shyaku December 27, 2018, 1:29 am
- Re: Disband the Left? - Sinister Burt December 27, 2018, 11:29 am
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