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DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Peter Warman on November 26, 2013, 2:22 pm

Hi All

Have a read of this article, it hints at the removal of a DPF could be invalidating your customers insurance, if the customer sell the vehicle on and does not inform the new owner are they committing fraud?

The law needs to be clarified, perhaps by the IMI, RMI, Motor Codes Etc, companies removing a DPF and re-mapping may be invalidating their customers insurance

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/british-bid-to-water-down-mot-pollution-test-could-risk-lives-8964264.html

All our Road Tax is based on emissions, if you remove the DPF does your vehicle become a bigger polluter? should you pay more road tax? (fraud)

Peter
Greenpeace

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Steve Sneap on November 26, 2013, 3:50 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Stephen Sneap

There was a similar article in autoexpress or auto weekly, magazine (which I was reading in the supermarket while my wife was shopping)about the same thing.
We don't remove DPFs or EGRs, we believe in a proper repair .Less than 20000 miles a year?
Do not buy a diesel
Next years new regs will only make things worse.
Its a shame Rudolf didn't drown before he invented the darn thing.
Steve Sneap

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Graham Bullock on November 26, 2013, 5:24 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Graham Bullock

I also think there should be some clarification from the IMI, RMI, Motor Codes to the dealers who sell these "unfit for purpose when used in towns" vehicles in the first place.
More should be done to stress the type of use these vehicles should or should not be used for.

It's debateable whether there can be an argument over "if you remove the DPF does your vehicle become a bigger polluter?" as, if you drive twice as far as your neighbour then you are a bigger polluter and that appears to be Ok as you are paying more in fuel tax.

Graham

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Liam Hall on November 26, 2013, 8:30 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Liam Hall

I'm with Steve as above, I really don't think removing them is the answer, I have many vehicles on my books with very high mileages fitted with dpf - they are maintained properly and used as intended - ie not as a shopping trolley.

People need to understand a diesel is not a valid choice for the Mrs or as a school run bus.

Just my view.....

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Les on November 27, 2013, 10:37 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Leslie Smith

Are you including a 3 cyl polo. Customer bought one and within 2months had to have a forced regen. Then another the next couple of months. Now come on, this car is for town driving not for long motorway journeys. It's a crap idea that does not work. You should be able to buy a car without the need to horse down the motorway every so often. Defeating the purpose of saving the planet .
Les

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Steve Sneap on November 28, 2013, 7:33 am, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Stephen Sneap

Hi again
A fiat 2009 Doblo 1.9 jtd owned by a mature couple maintained meticulously by us low ash oil etc ,driven by the hand book "change up early to achieve best mpg" with occasional long distance drives needed new DPF and EGR at 37K Fiat wanted £1500 for DPF alone|
All that money "saved" by running a diesel gone in one fell swoop.
An Audi Q5 v6 ......I could go on and on and on.... and I bet you all can.
Steve Sneap

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Keith Simpson on November 28, 2013, 9:56 am, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

It's just not fit for purpose, simple as that. I am sat on the fence at the moment as to whether I think it's legal or not. Can't blame people for trying to save money these days, when faced with an expensive repair.

I have a 2011 A3 that comes in every other month for Regen, this cars like new and don't think it's reached 8000 mile yet. Yes it's a shopping trolley, and as the owner tells me she is too scared to drive it on the motorway.

Keith

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on November 28, 2013, 4:21 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Mutlow

The title askes the question "Is it Legal?" As far as I am aware it is legal. OK, if a vehicle is modified in any way, then the owner is duty bound to notify the insurance company and may have to pay increased premiums which I doubt. As far as the MOT is concerned, I have not heard of a vehicle failing the emissions test because the DPF has been removed. If it comes into law that DPF removal is illegal, then the simple answer is to remove the guts of the thing and replace the empty shell back onto the vehicle. I share the general view that the DPF system is not fit for purpose.

Regards

Pete M

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by aidan birley on November 28, 2013, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Aidan Birley

Hi

Is it DPF's not fit for purpose of purpose not fit for DPF's ?

Yes we can all name customers who have had dpf issues but I guess we can also all name customers with DPF's that have covered well over 100000 miles without any problems.

cheers Aidan

Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Peter Warman on December 4, 2013, 5:52 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

http://www.aftermarketonline.net/News/Industry-News/2013/29465-/MOT-rules-tightened-to-detect-missing-DPFs

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-mot-to-test-for-diesel-particulate-filter

UKAT

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Dav Littlewood on December 4, 2013, 10:09 pm, in reply to "Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Dave Littlewood

Personally kept away from DPF removal. Can see removing one at say 2 years old then at 3 at test time who's back at me if the vehicle can't get through emmissions especially when the pass limit keeps dropping.
Or each time MIL light comes on - well you removed the dpf & it must be something to do with that & on & on...........

The other thing I have seen some vehicles with DPF removed & how would you tell if you did not know, apart from if the dpf case as been welded back up.
Probabaly ends up like SRS lights, if it's on it's a fail or if it doesn't light up it's a pass..
So if there is a dpf case then assume it's fitted...

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Peter Warman on December 5, 2013, 8:42 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Peter Warman

Hi Dave

That is a good point

Many workshops will have removed DPF's for customers and modified the software without knowing that this is actually illegal to do so (so the Government Statement points out)and could affect the customers insurance as the car has been modified from the original VM specification

"IF" the DPF MOT rules come into effect in February this could cause problems for some workshops as the customer is going to claim that this was done without knowing the full legal implications, "it was not explained at the time" and ask that the workshop puts it right, could be a few nasty confrontations with customers looming for some

I would think in the light of this looming MOT change all the trade associations such as Motor Codes, RMI, Trust My Garage etc should warn their members to stop the removal of DPF's as the associations could also be caught up in this mess

There will probably be some workshops that will have a clever "dodgy" work around to get it through a test, so lets hope the test for DPF's if 100% (if that's possible)

Customers also need educating that they need to have their vehicles serviced correctly (and regularly) with the right oils and not top up with cheap 10w40. If the DFP light comes on don't ignore it

Peter

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Tony Attwood on December 5, 2013, 10:35 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"

From February 2014 the inspection of the exhaust system carried out during the
MoT test will include a check for the presence of a DPF. A missing DPF, where one
was fitted when the vehicle was built, will result in an MoT failure.

Although happy the issue is settled now, two things spring to mind:

Firstly, what criteria will the check for the presence of a DPF be?

A visual check for pressure pipe & heat sensor? .. .. .. Oooops
Some cleverly hidden ‘cutting & shutting’ will disguise the fact the can is empty.

A diagnostic check for data? .. .. .. Oooops
Who makes a tool that will read DPF data on all relevant vehicles?

Secondly, Who is going to compile the list of affected vehicles?

To name a few, Peugeot, Vauxhall, Ford & VAG have made the same model with and without DPF as O.E.

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Peter Warman on December 5, 2013, 10:47 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Peter Warman

The biggest fear will be when the customer telephones to say my car has failed on the DPF as it's missing and can you repair all the issues that made the original one fail?

......eeerm bit to busy at the moment, call back next year

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Michael Whitworth on December 5, 2013, 10:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

STOP PRESS!!!STOP PRESS!!!STOP PRESS!!!STOP PRESS!!!STOP PRESS!!!

New equipment being issued to MOT testing centres as of 1/2/2014.

Specifically designed for inspection of internal DPF substrate with out need for removal from vehicle.

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Andy Mason on December 6, 2013, 8:23 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"

Very good.
Do they also allow you to see through the other crazy ideas they come up with.
Andy

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 8, 2013, 1:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"

The main question here is does the MOT tester check to see that the DPF can is still in place or does he carry out a stricter smoke test to question if the can might be empty? I don't think the Tester would be allowed to remove and inspect the DPF casing or even to fail it if welded as it may have genuinely been repaired.

We have been installing LPG systems for many years and have removed the contents of many catalysts at customers requests. When sending these vehicles for MOT whilst running on LPG they still have to appear that a cat is fitted but a cat test isn't carried out, in these cases the old pre-cat emissions still apply, 3.5% co and 1200ppm HC i think.

We've carried out many DPF removals (emptying the contents) over the last 2 years and in most cases also installed a modified map for better performance and more economy, some of which smoke more than standard.

If these vehicles still were to pass the MOT visually but fail on excessive smoke then this could be easily temporarily corrected by further remapping or by turning down the fueling with a CRD tuning box.

Eddie Zyla
CRD Performance - Bolton.

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Ed Kaps on December 9, 2013, 1:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Edward Kaps

I have been waiting ages for this can of worms to surface. Along with many others here,I am totally against removal of DPFs even though there are undoubtedly problems in reliable operation.
We,as an Industry, should not be removing an emissions device and altering software to hide the fact that we have performed this operation which considerably adds to the pollution emitted by that vehicle.
Making this illegal is just a start, policing it is going to be the real problem on cars already without DPFs, but if WE as an industry refuse to do it,-as we should-because it is illegal, then policing the remaining 'cowboys' should be easier.
I do MSA scrutineering in my spare time, and a couple of years back the MSA came out with all racecars (late ones) had to be fitted with CATS, not that we checked emissions or lambda, just that if it looked like a CAT then that's it, hopefully we can do better with this.
In most situations- even a free standing max revs check will give some indication of soot at the back when DPF has been removed. To suggest that 'turning back' the fuelling with any tool and altering the subject line of this thread is a joke which shows a complete disregard for how important this issue is.

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Andy Evans on December 10, 2013, 7:57 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Andrew Evans

Well said Ed!

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Peter Warman on December 10, 2013, 2:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"

Hi Ed

Yes I totally agree

Customers having the DPF removed are not being given the whole truth, removing the DPF will not prevent the harmful soot particle entering the atmosphere especially in our cities

What they do not realise is the EGR may also be mapped out or blocked off, so increasing the NOx emissions on top

The whole practice is taking highly efficient modern diesels back into the 1990's for polluting

Detection of removed DPF is going to be hard work, so why not just make the removal and tampering of emissions systems a criminal offence

We are ALL working together to improve how we conduct our businesses and act professionally towards our customers, this practice if not stopped will put our profession back in the "dodgy" category after many years of trying to improve it

Peter

MOT Stations that offer DPF Removal

Posted by Andy Amor - SP Diagnostics on December 10, 2013, 2:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"

Hi all.

I am pleased this has now been clarified, as we make a DPF Regeneration Tool!

I too have been waiting for this to surface, as i know quite few MOT Testers who offer DPF removal.

Are they going to fail the car they removed the DPF on?

I'll let them ponder over their personal dilemma!

Kind regards

Andy

Re: MOT Stations that offer DPF Removal

Posted by Peter Warman on December 10, 2013, 2:59 pm, in reply to "MOT Stations that offer DPF Removal"
Peter Warman

Hi Andy

I have been doing a bit of research this afternoon

"DPF Removal" in Google, there are hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of garages offering this service, quite some sophisticated and slick websites. Most of the ones I clicked on were removing the DPF completely and putting a straight through pipe in then a remap

Guess web designers, dpf regenerating fluid companies

are in for a bonus in 2014

Peter

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by jim croft on December 10, 2013, 7:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Jim Croft

Hi The way I see it at the moment the main people getting upset about this are the company's that offer the service and are worried about loosing money. Another thought, in time will it become illegal to remap any car away from the manufacturers specification ?
Jim

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Michael Whitworth on December 10, 2013, 8:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

>>>>in time will it become illegal to remap any car away from the manufacturers specification<<<<

Isn't it already, if you apply the same criteria for modifying/removing DPFs?

"under the Construction and Use Regulations (more specifically, Regulation 61A of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations) it is illegal to use a vehicle on the road if it has been modified in such a way that it no longer meets the air quality emissions standards that it had to when originally produced."

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 11, 2013, 12:12 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Peter Mutlow

*"under the Construction and Use Regulations (more specifically, Regulation 61A of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations) it is illegal to use a vehicle on the road if it has been modified in such a way that it no longer meets the air quality emissions standards that it had to when originally produced."*

This may be so. But as far as re-mapping is concerned this is academic. Unless detailed examination is taken of the software contained within the ECU and the vehicle passes the MOT smoke test, no-one apart from the parties concerned will know that the vehicle has been re-mapped.

The same applies to DPF removal. If the DPF contents have been removed, then unless the MOT tester removes the DPF for inspection or a soot test is implemented, then again no-one apart from the parties concerned will be none the wiser.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the DPF system as it stands is not fit for purpose and the ordinary motorist is being penalised accordingly.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Michael Whitworth on December 11, 2013, 6:30 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

Hi Pete,

"no-one apart from the parties concerned will be none the wiser."

Double negative? meaning everyone will be wiser?

Seriously though, the point was it may be illegal to modify the manufacturers map as this will change the original intended emissions, surely? Just because it is not detectable it does not make it right!!!

"As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the DPF system as it stands is not fit for purpose and the ordinary motorist is being penalised accordingly."

I totally agree. I believe DPFs are a poor solution to a problem. I reckon the problems being experienced with DPFs with all the extra miles and fuel used to regen them are probably doing more harm than good to the environment overall.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Les smith on December 11, 2013, 7:37 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Leslie Smith

My daughter bought a 2Ltr qashqai as she needs a 4x4. She lives in the country where snow drifts are common in winter. After 2500 miles the dpf light on then only 15 miles later the eml on thus shutting down the regen. Now nee. ds a forced regen and all that intails. Not good for injectors etc. she drives 25 miles to work some along the edinburgh by pass and she is not a slow driver. Does she sell the car. Why it was bought for a purpose which it serves. Get another forced regen if and when the light comes back on. Or does she get it remapped. Before anyone say's it is not being driven as intended. Crap. The school run, yes. Her driving is normal. You don't use a 4x4 for motorway driving. I have given her the options. She only had the car 2 months. I say ask salesman if there are any petrol qashqai . I will let you know. Customers are paying for very weak technology.
Regards
Les

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by aidan birley on December 11, 2013, 8:17 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Aidan Birley

Les

You don't say how old this is, but I am sure there where software updates for DPF issues on these.

>>> Customers are paying for very weak technology. <<<

It would seem not all vehicles / driving styles are effected as I can list many with 100K - 200K miles which have never had a single DPF issue. !!

I do agree some can be a right pain, but clearly the technology can work.

Aidan

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Ed Kaps on December 11, 2013, 9:48 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Edward Kaps

Great discussion with very valid points. We all know the pitfalls of DPFs in urban environments, software updates etc from the VMs go some littleway to alleviate these problems as does correct cleaning procedure as performed on HGVs, ie oven cleaning and refit. It is not our job though to 'reinvent the wheel', let Government and VMs sort that one out. We should have what the Yanks have--a six year warranty on all emission related devices on the car-mandated by their Government. The same cars there, the same VMs-so why not.

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 11, 2013, 12:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Peter Mutlow

All good discussion points. This reminds me when the EEC had to make a decision on petrol emissions many years ago. Do we go the way of the USA with catalytic converters and the associated engine management paraphernalia or the Japanese way with lean burn engines. We went the USA way and the customer then had to pick up the costs of expensive catalytic converters etc.

All of this in the name of "Global Warming." When you consider that only 2.5% of CO2 emitted into the atmosphere is man-made and a tiny proportion of that figure is produced by the motor vehicle, it would appear to me that the world is disappearing up its own back-side to try and solve a perceived problem......

Regards

Pete M

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Peter Warman on December 11, 2013, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Peter Warman

Lets not forget that this also gives more amo to the manufacturers case for not giving access codes etc to Independent workshops

The Independents have been remapping, tweaking the software and more recently mapping out DPF's, will the manufactures now start to "lock down" ecus so they cannot be tampered with (some probably are already). We don't want Brussels to come out and say that the Independent market cannot be trusted

Peter

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Les on December 11, 2013, 6:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"
Leslie Smith

Qashqai is just over 3 years old. Going in tomorrow for dpf problem and a software recall. Do not what this is for but she is going to ask.
Les

Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 12, 2013, 12:28 am, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It's not legal to remove"

It's nice to see you're coming around to my way of thinking Ed, let me know when you are ready to do your first DPF removal and i'll introduce you to a good re-mapping company.

For a small comission of course.

Regards Eddie.

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Mark Carter on December 14, 2013, 8:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Mark Carter

A great post as others have said,

Just one note though, Pete Mutlow wrote:

>>> All of this in the name of "Global Warming." When you consider that only 2.5% of CO2 emitted into the atmosphere is man-made and a tiny proportion of that figure is produced by the motor vehicle,<<<

Its nothing to do with Global warming, in fact a vehicle fitted with a working DPF will produce more CO2 than the same vehicle without one.

This is because of the conversion of PM (which is predominately Carbon) into CO2. Its all about air quality and what we breathe in.

Mark

Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 14, 2013, 11:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Mark,

Certainly agree. My comment re Global warning was meant to be aimed at CO2 emissions on petrol engines. I was unaware though that a DPF operating efficiently contributed to the Green-house gases. Looks like the world is doomed whatever action is taken.

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 16, 2013, 10:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Now it's official - It might be legal to remove"

We carried out a DPF removal on a 4 year old Merc 320 CDI today and initially installed a DPF delete only map into the ECU.

We rolled the car on our dyno for about 10 minutes to help clean the exhaust and i then drove it hard for about 15 motorway miles before taking it to our local MOT station. The vehicles emissions were tested at only 60 degrees as it had been left to cool down, it passed the test no problem after only 3 revs with an average of 1.41.

We then installed a performance map with an estimated increase of about 40 BHP, we didn't check it on our dyno but it felt about 40 horse. The same emissions test was repeated but this time 5 revs were requested before it also passed at 1.43.

Had this been a real test the vehicle would have passed as visually the DPF can looked standard and the exhaust opacity fell within limits.

Less CO2, more MPG, no engine oil dilution, better driveability and happy customer whilst still within legal emissions limits, your comments please Ed.

Eddie Zyla
CRD Performance.com
Bolton.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Tony Ludford on December 16, 2013, 11:35 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Tony Ludford

You've said it yourself, after a 15 min hard drive, it was 1.43. The limit is 1.5, so within a year or two of poor maintenance, or town driving/bad driving style (I'm assuming there was a reason for the DPF removal).

Then this one isn't going to be passing an MOT.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Graham Bullock on December 17, 2013, 1:13 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Graham Bullock

Every vehicle I have tested with a fully operational DPF has had to have the RPM pick up used because the smoke meter would not sense the acceleration from the exhaust emissions, also every one has passed on the first acceleration as a fast pass.

On the other hand, I can't remember having to use the RPM pick up on NON DPF vehicles and have to carry out at least 3 accelerations.

So the way I look at it, removing the DPF will increase the particulate emissions, and that is the whole point of the system. It may pass a test and be within "Current" legal emission limits but is it legal? And what if come February Vosa reduce the limit from 1.5 to say 1.0 or less for Originally DPF equipped vehicles?

Graham

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Andy Mason on December 17, 2013, 8:09 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

So are you an accessory to breaking the law or worse?

Andy

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Peter Warman on December 17, 2013, 8:25 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Warman

I agree Andy

The only garages that seem to be telling us it's going to be a waste of time or want to prove a point are the ones that stand to loose the most ie: £499.00 easy money for removing the DPF and remap

Peter

PS: Most modern HDi turbo diesels are quick anyway, so is a 40 BHP gain going to get you around the M25 any faster??

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Peter Warman on December 17, 2013, 8:42 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

This is taken from the Q****** T***** website, who say they remove more DPF's than any other company. So what is their solution......you have to laugh it's so outrageous

.......errr yes sir we have now carried out the DPF removal and remap, on you way home could you avoid the roads

From their website...

" IS DPF REMOVAL LEGAL?

Legal requirements and the MoT test
From February 2014 the inspection of the exhaust system carried out during the MoT test will include a check for the presence of a DPF. A missing DPF, where one was fitted when the vehicle was built, will result in an MoT failure.

A vehicle might still pass the MoT visible smoke emissions test, which is primarily intended to identify vehicles that are in a very poor state of repair, whilst emitting illegal and harmful levels of fine exhaust particulate.

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet.

Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use

QUANTUM ONLY RECOMMENDS DPF REMOVAL FOR OFF ROAD USE "

Particulate Testing

Posted by Peter Warman on December 17, 2013, 9:34 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Looks like there is already test equipment out there to test Particulate Output

http://www.testing-expo.com/europe/10txeu_conf/pdfs/day_2/340_wednesday_avl_joergl.pdf

MOT stations may be forces to upgrade their equipment to comply with the new regulations

Peter

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 17, 2013, 12:01 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Mutlow

Again some more interesting comments. I can understand the need for a DPF in view of the increasing amount of diesels now being sold compared to say 10 yrs ago. The soot emitted causes many thousands of deaths per year through cancer or lung diseases and the problem requires to be tackled effectively, not with the current DPF system which appears to be not fit for purpose, nor legislation that cannot be effectively implemented as it stands at the moment. Until these two issues are remedied, then this debate will continue for the foreseeable future.

These comments have been made:

It is illegal. Under current legislation, yes it is. At the moment, a DPF with the workings removed will pass the emission test. So, it cannot be proved. I also wonder if those commenting on the illegal aspect have broken the speed limit which is also illegal.

The web-site which Peter commented on. Surely, they are being responsible by advising the customer on the issues involved which I find commendable.

Warranty. It was mentioned that in the USA that a guarantee had to be provided for emission related parts (6yrs if I remember correctly). Excellent point. This will help safeguard the customer with expensive DPF failures.

Would an extra 40 BHP get a driver around the M25 quicker. No it wont. But it will give him a car with far better driveability and a potential for fuel savings.

In conclusion, as it stands at the moment, we have an expensive system not fit for purpose and legislation that is ineffective. If a customer asks me about DPF removal, I will provide him with the full facts. Once that is done, I know for the majority of the time, I will receive £300 of "easy money" and the customer will have saved an awful lot more.

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Andy mason on December 17, 2013, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

It is a great debate, but what about this comparison in response to Petes,
Are you guilty of anything, selling a weapon that is used in a murder, even though you did'nt commit the murder?
I think most people agree that Dps are not fit for purpose, but the law is'nt about how well they work, it is all about it being fitted and functioning in some manner
Andy

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Peter Warman on December 17, 2013, 2:09 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Just bringing this debate back over as its disappearing off my screen

Hi Peter

A lot of talk about "DPF's not being fit for purpose"....... Says Who?

Diesel remapping is big business and probably generates millions for the motor trade, I have no qualms about that. You only have to Google "Diesel Remapping" and hundreds of sites come up. Nothing wrong with extra power or torque if you spend most days driving some distance

This is where the "Not fit for purpose" falls down. Drivers will have the diesel re-map done and probably told at the time that if they have the DPF removed and a straight pipe fitted they can get an extra 20% power, this is to tempting to turn down (I wouldn't

)and at the time no one was fully informed of the future consequences. The DPF they had was probably working 100% efficiently

Many are removed probably because they are blocked, choked etc and very expensive to replace so have the guts knocked out and remapped, this is probably down to poor maintenance or driving style, as mentioned many members have customers that have done over 100,000 miles with no problem. Plus many manufacturers stipulate that a DPF has to be changed around 80,000 anyway (and never are)

When the new regulations come into force in February the tens of thousands that have had straight through pipes fitted are probably going to be the first to fail, to catch the ones that have had the guts knocked out will probably get lucky for a few years until new emission equipment is introduced to test the latest euro 5 and 6 vehicles, so could be 3 to 4 years before they are finally all caught out, many will have changed hands by then to unsuspecting buyers

I think this debate is more about those that have now been made aware of the new regulations and legal implications, are you still going to carry on removing them to to get that extra bit of power? What will you tell your customers when they return in February with a failure........"JUST USE IT OFF ROAD SIR"

Peter

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 17, 2013, 5:19 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Seasonal Greetings and Salutations Peter!

I feel the DPF as being unfit for purpose after hearing what would appear to be premature failures from the trade, customers and of course these exalted pages. A person should be able to purchase and drive a motor-vehicle without having to thrash it down the motorway every week or so (thereby adding to our already congested roads and adding to the pollution) with the spectre of a £1000 bill hanging over his head. Ok, I might be unfair tarnishing all makes with the same brush, but nonetheless premature DPF failure is a concern. I understand that all components have a "life" but if a main-dealer sent me a note to say that the DPF on my vehicle is due for a change at the 80,000 mile point and would I care to pop it in for a replacement "and that will be a £1000 please" I suspect he would not appreciate what I would tell him what to do with his DPF.

What is the answer? Maybe the cost of DPF systems will come down dramatically in price over time like catalytic converters did. Maybe this link provides the answer http://www.dpfgenie.co.uk or perhaps the Government should take more responsibility in building better roads and by-passes to ease congestion. I don't know. But as it stands the motorist is being caned for a system that appears to be not fit for purpose.

Finally, I have never participated in, or heard of a DPF being removed for performance purposes. I understand it can add an extra few BHP but the cost involved would not make it worthwhile. All DPF removals have been carried out because it is defective, under customers instruction who have been made fully aware of the possible consequences.

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Les on December 17, 2013, 6:21 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Leslie Smith

I can see both points of few but agree more with Pete M. My daughter lives in the country wher the nearest motorway is over 30 miles one way and 70 in the other direction. You could say you should not buy a diesel car for a 25 mile run to work in the city and the odd 600 mile round trip journey to Skye. I still say she should be able to drive without any fear of the dpf blocking. Even if the manufacture gave a better warning than a light to tell when a regen is required. I know for a fact that if the light comes on a qashqai then it is too late for a normal regen. Not a nice feeling to see your daughter spend a lot of money on a vehicle she needs only for her to shell out even more for a forced regen and oil and filter change. Round about my area, she is not the only one.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Ed Kaps on December 17, 2013, 6:41 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Edward Kaps

Comments Ed??
Does your kit comply with Euro 5?, Will it comply with Euro 6??, does it reduce the output of harmful pollutants from an engine as laid down by law?, Do you test total engine out emissions before and after??, If you can answer yes to those questions then I suggest you rapidly get across to Brussels and tell them you have an answer to the worlds problems and I will be one of the first to buy such an amazing tool.

Ed Kaps

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 17, 2013, 9:03 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Ed, what are you going on about, please explain.

Eddie Zyla.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Peter Warman on December 18, 2013, 7:26 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Hi Eddie

What Ed is going on about is:

The way the diesel emission test stands at the moments your Merc has passed with flying colours and probably will do for the foreseeable future. VOSA deemed the current emission test to be adequate for Euro 5 and 6 because they just assumed that every vehicle presented would have a functioning DPF, they could not envisage that garages would actually remove an anti pollution devise

The amount of Soot Particulates permitted to enter the atmosphere for Euro 5 vehicle has been reduced dramatically, the fact that you have removed an anti pollution device means it no longer meets that Euro 5 standard. Or have you found a solution for reducing the soot output via a software update?

So as for Eds question, now that you are aware that removing an anti pollution device is illegal and invalidates the drivers insurance (UNLESS YOU DRIVE IT OFF ROAD) are you still going to remove them on Euro 5 and Euro 6 vehicles?

I am sure VOSA, Motor Trade Associations and the Environment Agencies would be interested in your views on this open forum.

Peter

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Andy Mason on December 18, 2013, 8:10 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Andy Mason

Unfortunatley, whether the dpf works/is fit for purpose etc is irrelevent, it is illegal to use a vehicle on the road without it, if it was equipped originally on the vehicle.
So great debate, but it doesnt alter the facts
Andy

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 18, 2013, 8:52 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

"Open forum Peter" i get it

Eddie Zyla.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Ed Kaps on December 18, 2013, 9:37 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Edward Kaps

Peters reply is absolutly spot on and sums up my stance perfectly. To brag about efforts to fool the (out of date) smoke test is laughable if it was not so serious.
Yes, there are problems with DPFs, I have had Qashqai in here with DPF problems as dsescribed which required forced regen and dealer software changes. Nissan did not help their cause by advertising the Qashqai as the 'Ultimate urban vehicle' or something similar!.
We very regularly do on road regen on BMW and in just about every case it is the driving style/pattern which has contributed to the problem, We had a driving school BMW which the dealer had changed the DPF already and he had further problems with it, Forced regen ,software update and use the correct oil changed more regularly and he has had no further problems in over two years.
I have access to an industrial oven for those DPFs that will not clear with regen, they are 'cooked' at 600 deg C + and the ash then removed, just like the HGV market. In all cases though I sleep well at night because I have not chosen the cowboy route of some which is soon (thankfully) to be made illegal.
I do remember when the MOT test emission values were tightened many years back---Metro could not pass the test without removing vacuum advance and bringing revs up---As advised to do by the VI at the time,!!. Hopefully a similar ridiculous situation will not occur this time round.
We have not even started to discuss the importance of the correct low ash oil as required for all DPFs, manufacturers excessive service intervals, supermarket fuels etc etc.
Peter, you will have to move it all to the left again soon!

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 18, 2013, 5:45 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

To summarise my understanding of the situation as it currently stands (no doubt I will be corrected if I am wrong), a diesel vehicle presented for MOT wef 1 Feb will in addition to the emission check be checked for the presence of a DPF if it was originally fitted as standard. How a standard fitting is to be checked is interesting because I understand the same make, model and year could be fitted with or without a DPF when manufactured. Perhaps I am wrong on that point. I don't believe that emission standards prior to Euro 5 standard which I believe came into effect 1 Sep 2009, will be lowered to detect a non-functioning DPF. With the introduction of Euro 5, this has the made the use of the DPF obligatory because I assume the vehicle would fail the emission test otherwise. So, if all the foregoing is correct, a vehicle built prior to 1 Sep 2009, with a "non-functioning" DPF will still pass the MOT emission test irrespective of the legal issues. Obviously, a vehicle with a missing DPF will immediately fail.

As an aside, it is interesting the issue Ed raised about the Metro and Mini concerning the petrol MOT tests. In those days, a vehicle had to be within 4.5/3.5% CO and 1200 ppm HC at idle but they couldn't achieve these standards so the rules were changed to accommodate these vehicles and if they passed the 1200 ppm at fast idle, then it would be deemed a pass. Funny how rules can be changed if required. Also, I don't think there was any "boasting" on one of the postings when it was mentioned that a vehicle passed an MOT without a working DPF. I read it merely as an example that it could be done.

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Eddie Zyla on December 18, 2013, 6:04 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Well pointed out Peter, i wasn't boasting. It was my factual contribution that has prolonged this post and nobody should discourage people to post on this forum.

Eddie Zyla.

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by aidan birley on December 18, 2013, 7:13 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Aidan Birley

Hi

There has been mention among these posts regarding possible risks to drivers insurance being affected on modified vehicles.

Clearly some of of the members above have experience in this area,Out of interest what reaction do you get from your motor trade insurance providers when you advise them (Duty of disclosure) of your involvement in questionable emission & performance modifications ?

Cheers Aidan

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 18, 2013, 7:33 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Mutlow

Not sure what you are implying Aidan. I carry out various forms of re-mapping and if a customer wants to break the law by going over the speed limit or illegally driving on the road in whatever form, that is down to them. They know the score. As previously mentioned, if I as a licenced fire-arms dealer sold a shot-gun to someone who then went on and murdered someone, I am not to blame.

As an interesting aside, I saw a 3yr old Audi being tested yesterday and it must have had the emissions of a wasp's fart. It barely registered on the machine. Most impressive.

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by aidan birley on December 18, 2013, 7:39 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"

Pete

The question was simple, what did you liability insurance provider say when you advised them that you did performance remaps ?

Cheers Aidan

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 18, 2013, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Aidan,

In a nutshell.... nothing. They did ask about exactly what my job entails which is mainly diagnostic and servicing work and I told them accurately. I like them, do not see any problem with re-mapping.

HTH

Regards

Pete M

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Les on December 18, 2013, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Leslie Smith

Yes it is illegal. The answer to the original post. Great though reading all the previous posts. The manufacturers get their vehicles to euro 5 standards by fitting dpf's, cats,EGR and the like. I wonder what tests are done to get euro 5. It is only when the real driving begins with the normal punter do we see the inadequacies of the dpf. Some but certainly not all manufacturers have done a good job. So where does that leave the customer. A rock and a hard place springs to mind. Until they get it more reliable it is going to be a problem. I think the legislators are pushing too fast and reliable technology can't keep up. Companies spending thousands on equipment to service DPF's tells it's own story.
Regards to all
Les

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Graham Bullock on December 18, 2013, 11:13 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Graham Bullock

Is that recently Pete? I think all the insurance companies are tightening up a lot now, having access to a lot more information and statistics and due to the vastly increasing claims they appear to be refining their policies.

Renewing a private car insurance last week the insurance companies now want copies of all paper driving licences of everybody named as a driver. I was told from January they will be requesting the driving licence number as they will have a direct link to DVLA to check every named drivers convictions, penalty points and what classes they are entitled to drive.

A friends son has just had to pay £600 for a two day trailer course to obtain the correct category for his licence, admittedly he should have had this before but like a lot of people he didn't. Now he won't get insured without specific exclusions on the policy as they are checking for specific uses.

At work, I have been insured with AXA for years and years and had fairly straight forward renewals, but this week I have had a four page form to fill in, part of which was to declare exactly what percentage of all the following categories I work on,
First was the usual Ford, Citroen, Peugeot, Vauxhall type of vehicle.
Then Jaguar, Daimler, Lexus, Infinity etc
Next was Landrover ,Rangerover, Porche and similar,
TVR, Caterham, AC, high value and performance cars.
There was a section for plant and machinery
and another section for any vehicle with performance modifications.
Motorcycles - they had informed me they will not cover at all which they have done previously.

Again details of all named drivers and clear notes that nobody under 21 to drive more than I think it was 1400cc and nobody under 25 driving over something like 1800cc.

The percentages declared on the above categories and ALL vehicles declared on my MID list will be used to access the "Risk" involved and my renewal will be priced accordingly, I shall await a shock this year I think.

I already have been told I can't work on LPG systems and wouldn't be surprised if performance vehicles or even any vehicle with performance modification may be next unless I pay extra specifically for this type of cover.

What with the comments about the MOT industry previously, the threat of super complaints against the motor trade, the clamp down on DPF's as discussed, euro 6, the continuous insurance laws released recently, number plate recognition cameras, government ministers saying they want to reduce the cost to motorists and today on the news an article about the poor shoddy repairs on accident damaged vehicles and the increased cost of car insurance I think we will have some tough times ahead.

Graham

Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed

Posted by Pete Mutlow on December 19, 2013, 12:23 am, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Graham,

That is frightening. I think that deserves to be moved to another topic for discussion as it is opening a whole tin of worms on a different subject. All I can say on my part is that I am a one man band and I don't have these complications. The only comment I can make is that I had a very minor RTA a few months ago which involved in reams of paperwork requiring all sorts of information including headed notepaper, copies of invoices, sales invoices and the like. I await my renewal notice with interest.

Regards

Pete M

Re-Mapping & Motor Trade Insurance

Posted by Peter Warman on December 29, 2013, 12:30 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Warman

Hi Guys

Happy New Year to everyone

Before Christmas I emailed my broker about this topic and he forwarded it onto the insurance company underwriter (one of the largest in the UK)

They came back to me a few days ago with a long email, most of it in insurance company jargon, but the basic details were there. They will be getting back to me in the new year with more info

From what I understand the insurance companies are not really up to speed with the re-mapping thing yet. When garages tell their broker that they carryout re-maps (occasionally

)the insurance companies assume that it's a "Fuel Saving / Economy" re-map, they are not aware that this can also seriously enhance the vehicles performance as well (not disclosed by the garage)

The insurance companies are also not aware that DPF's are being removed and that vehicles will fail an MOT in February. As your policy stands at the moment if your customer comes back to you to complain as it has failed the MOT then you may be able to claim the repair back on your insurance as it comes under the "poor workmanship" clause (you have done a repair that is substandard and caused the vehicle to fail an MOT)

All a grey area at the moment, but I would expect once the insurance companies are up to speed garages could expect a big hike in premiums if you are involved in re-mapping for performance

Peter

Re: Re-Mapping & Motor Trade Insurance

Posted by Ed Kaps on December 30, 2013, 5:24 pm, in reply to "Re-Mapping & Motor Trade Insurance"
Edward Kaps

Hi Peter
Had a BMW 530d in today with cat and DPF removed, (DPF casing welded up so obviously tampered with),been programmed for performance and dpf delete. A fair amount of black smoke under accelleration,
Passed an MOT today,but customer almost passed out when I told him about law change in February. To bring this car back to OE spec, will require DPF and CAT + software change, to bring it back to new MOT standards will probably get away with a DPF only-as obvious signs of tampering to original. It will be interesting to see how the VI deal with it.

PMM join the debate

Posted by Peter Warman on January 3, 2014, 1:11 pm, in reply to "Re:DPF Removed today - MOT emissions test passed"
Peter Warman

Professional Motor Mechanics join in the debate

http://pmmonline.co.uk/opinion/big-removal-mess

I particularly like the part about Motor Trade bodies keeping their heads down, not willing to offer their members any advise, legal or otherwise, I guess they are to busy building Fall Out Shelters to retreat to on the 1st of February 2014, not "D" Day but "DPF" Day

UKAT

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 3, 2014, 6:48 pm, in reply to "PMM join the debate"
Peter Mutlow

The MOT testers in my area who are aware of this new ruling in February seem to think that the new DPF Regs will be applicable to vehicles manufactured from 2014 onwards and not back-dated retrospectively. If that is the case, then common-sense has prevailed.

Regards

Pete M

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Peter Warman on January 3, 2014, 6:56 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"

Does that mean we can all sit back and relax until February 2017? as this will be the date the first 2014 will be due for test

Peter

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 3, 2014, 7:42 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"
Peter Mutlow

Its just opinion Peter and we will have to wait with bated breath. We have to consider that DPF's have been around for about 10yrs now, and I dread to think how many have been removed/tampered with in that time. There are a lot of unsuspecting owners out there who could be faced with horrendous bills. An old vehicle with a DPF removed passed an MOT Emission Test previously and I think common sense should prevail. If it is a safety issue, then that is a different story....just saying.

Regards

Pete M

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Graham Bullock on January 3, 2014, 10:07 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"
Graham Bullock

Quote "If it is a safety issue, then that is a different story".

But what about the safety of all those people that have had to breathe the shit that comes out of the vehicles that have had the DPF's removed? The whole point of having them in the first place was to prevent their ill health, wasn't it?

The reason for the rant is I saw my mother on Oxygen for 24 hours a day for years because of lung damage and know how people can suffer because other people don't give a dam but can save a few quid or make a few quid.

Graham

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Ed Kaps on January 4, 2014, 11:59 am, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"
Edward Kaps

Well put Graham.

I have mentioned previously that as professionals in this Industry we should not be condoning any of these practices, removing DPFs etc makes us little better than cowboys and I for one don't want to be one.

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 5, 2014, 6:00 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"
Peter Mutlow

Graham, I am very sorry to hear about your mother and I fully understand where you are coming from. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, air pollution causes or contributes to the deaths of many thousands of deaths each year in the UK alone and should be tackled more effectively than it is now. Successive Governments over the years have failed to tackle the issues of traffic congestion in cities and towns which must be a major factor in air pollution. The onus appears to rest solely on vehicle manufacturers who have not in many peoples opinion provided a viable remedy which at the moment provides a potential hefty financial burden on the already over-taxed motorist. The safety issues to which I refer as I think you know relates to brakes, tyres, suspension etc. Exhaust emissions I would put in the health category but again, I fully understand your point.

Ed. Again, I can see your point but have to disagree. We are not saving the motorist a few quid but potentially a thousand pounds or more which many cannot afford. If the DPF system was more affordable, fit for purpose and with a good manufactures guarantee then this topic would not be up for discussion. I don't make vast amounts of money out of it but it gives me the satisfaction that I have performed a service for a customer which he has requested and fully understands.

Regards and good wishes for the New Year to you both.

Pete

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Peter Warman on January 9, 2014, 1:59 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"
Peter Warman

Hi Pete

Happy New Year to you

I do not think that anyone here would dispute that a DPF is not fit for purpose, but its the best solution the manufacturers can come up with

It's a problem of our own making, 30 years ago motorist realised that diesel fuel was cheaper to buy and diesel vehicles did more miles per gallon. Once the sales of diesel vehicles took off manufacturers such as BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan etc realised that if they did not respond to demand they would loose billions in lost sales to rivals

Along the way Governments have told them to clean up their emissions year on year until we have now reached this point and ended up with an engine that is over designed and engineered, with anti pollution devices bolted on to comply with lower emissions......at the end of the day it's still an old oil burner and I think we have now reached the clean up limit with Euro 6.....also mega expensive to maintain after a couple of years (DPF's, Turbo's, Fuel Pumps etc)

Will the manufacturers want to invest in Euro 7 diesels or are we going to see a return to cleaner more efficient petrol and electric over the next 30 years

Formula 1 back soon with 1.6 V6 petrol engines with some assistance with electric drive at the wheels, this has got to be the way forward, smaller engines, more power and less pollution

Manufacturers have invested millions in diesel technology and may be reluctant to give it up, but one manufacturer will rise to the challenge and and give us a decent size car with a smaller petrol engine and possible electric assisted drive with ultra low emissions, the rest will follow........why persist with oil burners? lets leave diesel fuel where in belongs......in the Farm Yard

Peter

Re: PMM join the debate

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 9, 2014, 7:26 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"

Good Evening Peter,

May I also wish you a very happy and prosperous New Year.

I agree entirely with everything you have said and also wonder which way the auto industry will go. We have seen LPG come and go and electrically powered engines have been with us for about 10yrs and not taken off. However, we are where we are and I think the DPF technology will be part of the diesel engine for the foreseeable future. As you say, smaller more efficient petrol engines may well be the way forward and they have come a long way in terms of performance and efficiency especially when you look at small engined vehicles of 20 yrs ago which had the performance of a slug compared to what we have today. Diesels became more popular when diesel fuel was cheaper than petrol and fuel economy was also vastly superior. I think the corner was turned when turbos were fitted and diesels became less noisier and smellier than what they were.

I would assume the rest of Europe and USA are having the same issues with DPF's and I also wonder why LPG didn't take off bearing in mind it is slightly half the cost of diesel.

Still, we will see what February brings in terms of the MOT and DPF's and in the long term, once the public become fully aware of the replacement costs and maintenance issues of DPF's, I fear that the diesel engine for the motorist will be a thing of the past.

Regards

Pete

Confirmation from Vosa

Posted by Andy Amor - SP Diagnostics on January 10, 2014, 12:23 pm, in reply to "Re: PMM join the debate"

We have been following this topic with great interest and I agree with nearly all the comments within this thread. I am personally against removal and my own 2010 Octavia VRS still has its DPF, but understand why vehicle owners want it removed, however, I agree with Ed Kaps.

We have obtained information from VOSA and have been told that although the legislation comes into effect in February, visual inspections start in April due to the implementation of Special Notices etc.. and are totally retrospective. This means that if a DPF was removed in 2010 and tested in April 2014, it would fail the test if the Tester could see the DPF was removed.

VOSA will be supplying all Test Stations information on which vehicles were manufactured with a Diesel Particulate Filter.

So to clarify Peter's question, it applies to all vehicles regardless of when the DPF was removed.

Regards

Andy Amor
SP Diagnostics
Manufacturer of DPF Tools

First official statement....

Posted by Richard Bowler - PMM on January 15, 2014, 3:15 pm, in reply to "Confirmation from Vosa"

Guys,

We've had the first official-ish comment from one of the top bodies about this subject.

Doesn't provide a huge amount that we didn't already know, but it does put a little bit more meat on the bones........

http://pmmonline.co.uk/news/iga-clarifies-dpfmot-law-change

...... if I was a betting man, I'd say that many of the points raised by you guys here (and others) have caught the authorities unaware and they may not have considered the effects of certain permutations associated with the law change when it was announced.

Let's hope a clear and concise instruction on what to do in each and every circumstance when undertaking DPF checks at MOT time is circulated as soon as possible, otherwise I can see some cutting corners in their inspection process to avoid the headache of dealing with the resulting issues that could come from a failing DPF.

If we hear anything from VOSA then we'll publish it immediately!

Re: First official statement....

Posted by Andy Mason on January 15, 2014, 4:48 pm, in reply to "First official statement...."
Andy Mason

So is it just a matter of time before DVSA issue prohibition notices on motorists who have had there Dpf removed, and the garage who has carried out the deed being charged with being an accessory?
Andy

VOSA statement

Posted by Richard Bowler on February 5, 2014, 2:29 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

VOSA has now published an official notice - http://pmmonline.co.uk/news/vosa-publishes-dpfmot-notice - looks like the end of this month before we'll get any finer details about the inspection process!

Re: VOSA statement

Posted by Samantha Smith on February 5, 2014, 4:16 pm, in reply to "VOSA statement"
Samantha Smith

VOSA today have released Matters of Testing which states that it is only a visual check to see that it is there including DCATs this is the link.
www.mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/2014/01/27
hope this helps

Re: VOSA statement

Posted by Jon Morgan on February 19, 2014, 8:15 pm, in reply to "Re: VOSA statement"
Jon Morgan

It's not getting any better - Today we had a new customer roll up with a 2007 BRE engined 2.0 PD with DPF, EML & Glowplug lights lit.
Diagnosed a blocked DPF - DPF Ash Mass of 47g & loading coefficient of 92% all other factors that cause DPF issues checked out okay, car had done 80K.

Quoted for a software update (BRE original software suffers repeated failures to regen), new DPF etc at over £1000 + VAT to rectify.

Owner advised he'd pay the diagnostic & take it somewhere for a DPF off & remap.
We advised it is illegal, possible MOT failure etc & he replied, "the MOT is just a visible presence check - if the DPF housing is there the tester can't fail it"

To our knowledge he is not in the trade but was remarkably well informed of what he needs to do next to save himself some corn............

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Ed Kaps on February 26, 2014, 10:12 am, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Edward Kaps

Big article in this weeks Sunday Times about the Queen at Buckingham Palace having the highest road pollution in the UK right on her doorstep.
Boris wants to ban 'older' diesels as the primary cause. Somebody should tell her that she should be worrying about newer cars as well, seeing as her Government is making such an arse of implementing improvements to the MOT to tighten up on emissions.

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Dave Hill on March 2, 2014, 12:09 am, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Hi Peter

Picking up on your comments....

""So as for Eds question, now that you are aware that removing an anti pollution device is illegal and invalidates the drivers insurance (UNLESS YOU DRIVE IT OFF ROAD) are you still going to remove them on Euro 5 and Euro 6 vehicles?

I am sure VOSA, Motor Trade Associations and the Environment Agencies would be interested in your views on this open forum.
""

Don't you feel slightly hypocritical when you consider how many times you have modified & molested cars in the past?

Can anyone put their hand on their heart & state that they have never blanked off an EGR valve, or installed a GM software update, to "write out" the EGR function on a troublesome run of cars.

If GM / Vauxhall Opel can sneak a remap in under the radar, then what's the difference?

Ahh I get it TAX!

There are many valid arguments, where the true merits of the DPF technology are challenged. I suppose we shouldn't concern ourselves about the NET gains or losses of this technology & just concentrate on doing what we are told!

Yes, a vehicle running these technologies properly will have a reduced impact on the environment, especially in the short term. What happens at year five?

How many cars are going to wind their way to the scrap yard, because no one is clever enough to fix them legitimately? & for those who can fix them legitimately, how many customers will have the necessary funds?

Food for thought!

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Peter Warman on March 2, 2014, 11:56 am, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Warman

Hi Dave

Glad to see you have finally joined the debate

"Don't you feel slightly hypocritical when you consider how many times you have modified & molested cars in the past?"

Yes I will hold my hands up I have molested and modified many cars in the past.....many of them probably before you were born

Had a weekend and holiday job in a garage when I was 14 and watched the "Mechanics" take heads of Mini Coopers and skim 20 thou of the head and refit bigger bore SU carbs, the equivalent of remapping today for more power

Leap forward 40 years and it's a whole new ball game, we are all now "Technicians" striving to give the Motor Trade the "Professional" image it deserves. Hence many techs taking and retaking ATA accreditation and regular training courses to improve their image. Many of these techs will still modify and tweak software to make a vehicle go faster or more fuel efficient, every vehicle has the ability for this to be done.......no problem with that, good earner and keeps the customer happy

BUT!
Tweaking software to make an emission problem go away? just to save the customer the expense of having it fixed properly

Never heard of a Gas Fitter bypassing something on a boiler to make it work, or a surgeon bypassing someones kidneys because they stopped working.......a bit extream but if we want to be regarded as Professionals we should diagnos, quote and repair

Unfortunately Garage owners like yourself and me are caught up in a catch 22 situation

1) Customer comes in with a DPF fault, you quote him to do the job properly at a cost of £1200.00 .....you are then branded as a rip off merchant

2) You have removed the DPF after the customer begs you to do so to save himself £500.00......his car now fails the MOT because the DPF is missing, you refuse to put it right because it was the customers request....you are now branded a rip off merchant

3) Customer googles that the DPF innards can be removed and remapped, but will still pass the MOT as it's still in place. You inform the customer that it's not really legal and should be fixed properly, because you will not help him out and want to do the job correctly....you are branded a rip off merchant

Us technicians do not design cars, we just fix them. If the manufacturers have designed a "Not Fit For Purpose" system that keeps going wrong, let the customers whinge about the cost of repair to them. If a DPF cost £500.00 thats not us ripping them off its the manufacturer inflating the price, but we have to take the fall out

This debate will ramble on, much debate in Trade mags and online forums. But when it hits the tabloids (if) when the new rules kick in, bet your bottom dollar the Independent Garage is going to be branded as the bad guy.......only the Main Dealers can fix cars properly

Peter

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by John Ritchie on March 2, 2014, 2:38 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

This is an interesting post, my view on this one is similar to Peter's
I look to repair a fault to Manufacturer standard and removing DPF's is just a bi-pass, it isn't the correct repair .
Customers do lean on us for the "Cheap" repair and as long as there are people out there bi-passing & re -mapping customers will look for that service.
I offer a repair(new DPF) and not a bi-pass as it's the correct repair to carry out.
Is it legal or not ? I'll leave that to the politicians and Vosa to sort out and the thousands of DPF's that have been bi-passed by garages making a quick buck for the easy work and are the customers hero for saving them hundreds of pounds as That rip off garage along the road wanted to fix the car properly .

These same customers that were very pleased you saved them hundreds will not remember this when they fail the next MOT.
I'm not saying anyone on this forum are involved in the quick fix but those who have been might be worried of the pending outcome.

Just a thought for those that are bi-passing DPF's , i would trust you wouldn't have your kids in the car if you smoked for obvious reasons, so then for another obvious reason why poison your kids with particulates ?

Regards
John

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Dave Hill on March 2, 2014, 6:33 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Hi John

"I offer a repair(new DPF) and not a bi-pass as it's the correct repair to carry out. "

Who decides what is & what is not a "correct repair" to carry out?

What constitutes a "correct repair"?

I suppose we should look at what we are trying to achieve when we attempting a repair & what is our goal or motivation?

Are we trying to offer a cost effective, long term & reliable fix, that will allow the owner to use their car reliably & lawfully for a reasonable period, without the likelihood of repeated & costly problems? Or are we simply trying to "bin" the customer off & draw 500 quid for 20 minutes work?

A couple of months ago, I think it is safe to say that a professionally delivered "DPF off" solution, although "questionable", would have ticked all the boxes, in each aspect of my previous statement. After all, if done properly, the car was considered to be lawful at the time, as it should easily pass the annual emissions test as it is currently applied.

It is only now that we are told that the driver is contravening the law, by deliberately using a modified car. So the previous repair route, offered in good faith, is now deemed to be illegal! Who is the bad guy here?

Previously I made reference to, what I consider to be an extremely relevant subject & that is the Vauxhall EGR solution that the manufacturer sought fit for mass release. I am sure that there are other instances too! For example, there are many reported rumours (that's screwed my argument lol ) that many Manufacturers have played with the tolerances of their own Cat Efficiency monitors, to widen the goal posts & allow a more relaxed threshold limit.

What on earth would motivate the manufacturers to manipulate their software in this way? of course we all know that these decisions are driven by balance sheet analysis. 5,000 EGR Valves (just a wild guess) replaced at the expense of the VM, versus a software patch & permanent solution to a headache.

The same argument applies to costly P0420 comebacks.

Of course I am merely sitting on the fence in this discussion & playing devil's advocate. I only ever repair cars "Correctly"

PS These views & opinions are offered in good faith & were believed to be accurate at the time of writing.

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Peter Warman on March 2, 2014, 8:35 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Warman

Hi Dave

"A couple of months ago, I think it is safe to say that a professionally delivered "DPF off" solution, although "questionable", would have ticked all the boxes, in each aspect of my previous statement. After all, if done properly, the car was considered to be lawful at the time, as it should easily pass the annual emissions test as it is currently applied.

It is only now that we are told that the driver is contravening the law, by deliberately using a modified car. So the previous repair route, offered in good faith, is now deemed to be illegal! Who is the bad guy here? "
...........................

The removal of an emission device and modifying the software has not been legal from day one, nothing has changed, no new laws created

The government and VOSA officials that sit behind desks did not envisage or imagine that garages would remove and tamper with the DPF devices. It is only recently that Twitter campaigns by some such as Cleaner Air for London have brought this to their attention as Lorries, Vans, Taxis and Cars have had a DPF removed and causing excessive levels of pollution in London and other major cities

All that has happened is that VOSA is just bringing in an additional check to make sure they are still present

Peter

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Dave Hill on March 2, 2014, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Hi Peter

"The removal of an emission device and modifying the software has not been legal from day one, nothing has changed, no new laws created "

Holy shit!

GM are in for a kicking then!

Or am I missing something?

Or is it the case that no one is interested in the lesser act of screwing with EGR function?

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Ed Kaps on March 3, 2014, 11:39 am, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Edward Kaps

Reading between the lines Dave, I Imagine that you do(or did!) offer a DPF delete service? and are not really 'sitting on the fence'. All of Peters comments are correct, you are not telling me that you did not know that removal of an emissions device is Illegal? of course it is.
The problem in this country is that we make the laws and legislation in an effort to improve the environment for future generations, but make an absulutely crap job of policing these laws. The latest DPF MOT check in its present state is doing little more than paying lip service to the problem, but it's a start.
If someone had big enough pockets to challenge GM over the EGR delete software position then I am sure that they would be guilty of breaking 'The law' as well, just as we are by knowingly modifying diesel engines to emit excessive levels of carcinogenic soot into the atmosphere.
A couple of years back I paid for all my staff to be trained and accredited for gas handling as the government mandated that R1234 had to be strictly controlled 'in an effort to improve the environment for future generations'., It was made 'illegal' to knowingly add gas to a system known to be empty. As you well know, allmost all cars that request AC service have little or no gas, yet Quick fit and the majority of the motor trade will still top up first without leak checks, knowing full well that there is no policing of our industry, so lets go for it and to hell with legislation.
I know I am pissing against the wind in trying to do things correctly and it will have cost me dearly but at least i know in my own infinitesimal way I am doing my bit for the environment even though the law is not (yet).

The Most Reverand

Ed Kaps

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Peter Warman on March 3, 2014, 12:03 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Hi Dave

Yes you are correct GM have cocked up the EGR problem

But looking at a press release today, GM are in trouble big time, taking up to ten years to acknowledge an ignition switch fault that has cost lives

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140301/OEM11/303039961/gm-execs-brace-for-recall-fallout

GM are virtually broke, so taking then to court is a non starter. When Billions of Dollars are at stake I guess a software patch would suffice, they have a much bigger problem to tackle

The DPF debacle is a problem of our own making, not theirs

Peter

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Pete Greenow on March 3, 2014, 6:58 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Greenow

Hi

Some would call Hadrians wall a fence, it's so wide lots can sit on it !

The question of legality has been well discussed and I guess that I have to concur with the recent posts by Ed Kaps ( pick yourself up off the floor Ed we do agree sometimes ! & Peter )

The removal of any component that is originally fitted to gain type approval and set the emissions band for taxation will be enforced by the Government through Vosa. As Peter states anyone doing this does open themselves to litigation.

I would pose the question though, is the most guilty party the car salesman who originally sold a vehicle that was clearly not fit for purpose. They should have advised a vehicle that fitted in more with the drivers pattern of motoring.

Reverend Ed I also have never sold this service, and have lost work where the owner did not want to pay for a proper i.e back to its original build, state. Does this make me a bishop ?

Regards

Pete

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by John Ritchie on March 4, 2014, 8:29 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

Hi Dave

"I offer a repair(new DPF) and not a bi-pass as it's the correct repair to carry out. "

"Who decides what is & what is not a "correct repair" to carry out? "
That would be me

"What constitutes a "correct repair"? "
The manufacturer workshop manuals

"I suppose we should look at what we are trying to achieve when we attempting a repair & what is our goal or motivation? "

Good point , the goal as always is to carry out the correct repair

"Are we trying to offer a cost effective, long term & reliable fix, that will allow the owner to use their car reliably & lawfully for a reasonable period, without the likelihood of repeated & costly problems? Or are we simply trying to "bin" the customer off & draw 500 quid for 20 minutes work? "

Not guilty

"It is only now that we are told that the driver is contravening the law, by deliberately using a modified car. So the previous repair route, offered in good faith, is now deemed to be illegal! Who is the bad guy here? "

The garage that removed the DPF

"Previously I made reference to, what I consider to be an extremely relevant subject & that is the Vauxhall EGR solution that the manufacturer sought fit for mass release. I am sure that there are other instances too! For example, there are many reported rumors (that's screwed my argument lol ) that many Manufacturers have played with the tolerances of their own Cat Efficiency monitors, to widen the goal posts & allow a more relaxed threshold limit"
.
Yes good point but like good politicians they (the manufacturers) could make any figures look good

I look at the new DPF option as i believe its the only way to go as we will are the last to work on the car so we caused the problem!! how many times has that one popped up!

regards
John

Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?

Posted by Peter Warman on April 17, 2014, 3:15 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Warman

Hi

Just wondering if the DPF check has kicked in yet on the MOT test yet?

Anyone had any failures yet?

Peter

Re: Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?

Posted by Peter Warman on April 17, 2014, 4:19 pm, in reply to "Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?"
Peter Warman

Had this reply from another source

" Yup !
Had a zafira sent to me from another garage that had MOTd and failed due to cut and weld on dpf !
I quoted customer for new DPF and software he then went totally ballistic at the price, went back to the garage that initially removed the DPF and got a cut price MOT off them which passed!!
Again come out looking the bad guy for doing the job right !!!"

So who is right?

If the car is sent back to the original garage that removed it and they just pass it......does that not make a joke of the whole process?

Peter

Re: Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?

Posted by Tony Bickers on April 17, 2014, 5:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?"
Anthony Bickers

I can see VOSA mobile enforcement vans checking this issue on the regular road side stop and check inspections, that could put a cat amongst the pigeons as well !!

DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Mark Shipman on April 18, 2014, 7:51 am, in reply to "Re: Has it kicked in on the MOT yet?"

Hi
That "other source " is me!! vehicle is a taxi too!!
Same garage is still removing DPFS and putting for off road use only!!
So demoralizing wanting to do the job properly/as i would wish my own car to be repaired.
MARK

Re: DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Pete Mutlow on April 19, 2014, 4:36 pm, in reply to "DPF REMOVAL"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Spoke to an MOT Tester this morning about this issue and he informs me that the MOT testing stations have not been issued with any notification on what vehicles were fitted with a DPF on manufacture. This poses an obvious question: How does the MOT tester know that a DPF has been removed when he does not know it was fitted in the first place? If he sees "non-standard" flexi-pipes or piping in its place, he may guess that a DPF was originally fitted but cannot be 100% sure. I suspect "lip service" is being paid to this EEC Reg.

Regards

Pete M

Re: DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Dave Hill on April 19, 2014, 9:44 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF REMOVAL"

>>Had a zafira sent to me from another garage that had MOTd and failed due to cut and weld on dpf !<<

Question is..... was the DPF casing missing completely & in it's place a "straight through" pipe fitted, or did it simply exhibit evidence of some "tampering" to the original DPF casing?

Re: DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Mark on April 20, 2014, 5:09 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF REMOVAL"

Hi
It had been tampered with!!! Or butchered
was more a accurate description !
Was belching black smoke out too !(sounded
like split turbo pipe too )
Mark

Re: DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Gordon Donaldson on April 20, 2014, 8:00 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF REMOVAL"
Gordon Donaldson

Just back end of last week from 5 yearly 2 day refresher course and the dpf/cat question was discussed.
The Vosa view is if they have been removed and there is obvious new pipework in placr where the dpf/cat should be its a definate fail.
If they have been butchered , (cut open and gutted) then welded back up then they pass.
We are not able to see inside either so have no idea what is inside, only they are still in the system so must be passed.

Re: DPF REMOVAL

Posted by Jon Morgan on April 20, 2014, 10:17 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF REMOVAL"

Next scenario -

DPF shows signs of obvious welding to the can.

DPF pressure sender pipes are disconnected.

Pressure sender plug is disconnected, temp sender harnesses are disconnected & no MIL on.

Exhaust smokes at idle but passes the opacity test.

Pass or fail??

Diesels are bad for you

Posted by Peter Warman on May 1, 2014, 9:33 am, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

So now it's official

Page 14 of the Daily Mail today (Thursday 1st May 2014) full page article on how bad diesels are for us and killing us with particulates, the Government got it wrong by pushing customers towards diesel vehicles as they emit less greenhouse gasses but overlooked the particulate pollution at ground level that's doing the damage to our lungs

DPF's fitted to vehicles from 2009 are not up to the job and causing problems for urban drivers nearly always in the wallet region

Or is it just the Daily Mail just being the Daily Mail?

Peter

Re: Diesels are bad for you

Posted by Ed Kaps on June 23, 2014, 5:07 pm, in reply to "Diesels are bad for you"
Edward Kaps

Peter
Thought it was time to bring this back to the top!.
-Diesels bad for you?, then you should read March 2014 edition of 'Engine technology international'.
TUV Nord have tested three current GDI engines for particulate emissions and have said that they emit approx ten times the amount of Particulates that a modern diesel (when fitted with a working DPF) does. For them to become as clean as diesels they will require a GPF to be fitted (gasoline particulate filter). Reason it has not happened already is that petrol emission legislation is not as tight as diesel (Euro 5 and 6), but will change in the near future.
So the next big buzzword will be GPF as well as DPF.
Considering the arse we have made in policing DPF the policing of GPF will be worth following--providing we are not all dead through particulate poisoning beforehand.--we are all Doomed!

Re: Diesels are bad for you

Posted by Andy Amor - SP Diagnostics on June 24, 2014, 6:51 am, in reply to "Re: Diesels are bad for you"

Hi Ed and Peter (and thread)

I understand that GPF's will be OEM fitment on all new vehicles from 2017.

It's all good for business!

Regards

Andy

Re: Diesels are bad for you

Posted by Andy Mason on June 24, 2014, 7:25 am, in reply to "Re: Diesels are bad for you"
Andy Mason

Would it not be easier and cheaper to fit every citizen with a combined gpf/dpf to wear whenever they go out, paid for, of course by Brussels

Andy

DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk

Posted by Peter Warman on December 10, 2015, 11:13 am, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Warman

Finally!

Is this the end for garages flouting the law

UKAT

Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk

Posted by Lee Mackintosh on December 10, 2015, 1:42 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk"
Lee Mackintosh

All I can see is this causing more cars to be scrapped and most likely DPF price increase.

Is there actually a company who can supply a good aftermarket version?

Is a diesel car actually worth buying any more, injectors costing £200-£500. DPF's £400-£2000, EGR issues etc and what do you actually save.

Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk

Posted by Graham Bullock on December 10, 2015, 3:45 pm, in reply to "DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk"
Graham Bullock

Hi Peter, I note your first post of November 2013

Hi All

Have a read of this article, it hints at the removal of a DPF could be invalidating your customers insurance, if the customer sell the vehicle on and does not inform the new owner are they committing fraud?

The law needs to be clarified, perhaps by the IMI, RMI, Motor Codes Etc, companies removing a DPF and re-mapping may be invalidating their customers insurance

All our Road Tax is based on emissions, if you remove the DPF does your vehicle become a bigger polluter? should you pay more road tax? (fraud)

Peter

Sorry to query your post but

1) I have not heard of anybody having their insurance invalidated or being prosecuted for fraud except VW and Bosch.

2) I have never seen any substantial clarification from any of the trade associations or even the government except the very watered down "visual" checks at Mot time.

3) No change on the road tax front either.

4) Your new link above shows four links
a) July 2010
b) Jan 2014
c) Dec 2013
4) May 2014

All old and out of date, and who is Jason Heitmann and what authority has he got to announce this without links to who said it? Ah, he runs a business "aimed solely with emissions compliance".

Call me sceptical but I don't think anything has changed and nothing will, same as the last two years. That is, unless this government gets off it's arse.

Graham

Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk

Posted by Peter Warman on December 10, 2015, 4:24 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk"
Peter Warman

Hi Graham

Yes this has rumbled on a bit, they are all old links and nothing about any of the above has come to realisation (yet)

But perhaps the lawyers acting for VW and Bosch as you point out (2), have said hang on a minute, we are being prosecuted for installing defeat software on our diesel vehicles......while in the UK you have Independent Garages installing similar cheat software and they are getting away with it? (companies selling the cheat type software for DPF removal even though they know its illegal)

So maybe this has woken up a sleeping government official......have to wait and see if this guy has got his facts right

Peter

Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk

Posted by Graham Bullock on December 10, 2015, 5:17 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal at the Garage Owners risk"
Graham Bullock

We can only hope that this does get pursued Peter.

Graham

Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #

Posted by Peter Mashiter on December 12, 2015, 7:12 pm, in reply to "Re: DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"

I have a theory.........

With most vehicles having intelligent learning map ecu's & cycles per trip, short runs then long runs within a short period surely wreaks havoc with fuel trims & duty cycles, not to mention blocked DPF's that have been caused by the former.

Another theory of mine is that i am a firm believer in running a vehicle for at least 50 miles or more to get the CORE temperature of the engine at a more or less constant.

As with animals & human beings we can feel cold on the outside but we always maintain a core temperature. If our core temperature drops we onset hyperthermia.

An engine is not a living thing & opposite, so to get a core temperature it surely needs a considerable long journey to hit & maintain core temperature.

Think of it this way, a engine has hyperthermia most of the time unless you are a rep or truck driver.

Open the bonnet of a vehicle after a trip from London to Birmingham in poring rain! Most of the engine bay you will find not a hint of condensation.

Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Peter Warman on April 20, 2016, 8:42 am, in reply to "DPF Removal - Is it legal? #"
Peter Warman

Government finally taking notice

http://garagewire.co.uk/news/government-investigates-dpf-removal-ahead-of-crackdown

Peter

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Jon Morgan on April 20, 2016, 11:01 am, in reply to "Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Jon Morgan

Some interesting comments being generated at the end of that article Peter, I wonder if it will go on to achieve 109 responses, oops 110.......

We've had an A3 dropped in this morning from a workshop who've tried to "fix" it's DPF issue.

Various parts and many hours labour have been spent culminating in a DPF off with complimentary remap.

Car keeps dropping into limp mode now, so the original software has allegedly been reinstalled (even though the brick is now absent).
Still the engine drops into limp when driven, but now (on it's original software, "honest guvnor") it doesn't log any DTC's at all.

Should I get involved?

It hacks me right off that the world is now full of cowboy remappers who can't or won't invest in the requirements needed to repair a vehicle properly.
These so called technicians seem to think it's clever to remove an ECU's DTC logging capability & various engine components to achieve a lazy 'fix'.

It's the next poor sod who has to work on it that ends up tied in knots.

Roll on technician licensing to chase these ten gallon hat tarts out of the trade.

Regards,
Jon.

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Anthony Pickering on April 20, 2016, 4:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Anthony Pickering

Well said Jon.

it winds me up that these "re-mappers" delete codes and muck up live data, when it goes wrong trying to diagnose a fault can be such a nightmare.

we had a vectra v6 diesel, clean car, in for a lack of power, customer told us its been dpf deleted and remapped. live data made no sense, no codes stored or could be created unplugging sensors. in the end i recommended a new ecu flashed to latest standard software and a new dpf BEFORE further diagnosis.

saying this to a customer could make a good tech look stupid in untrained eyes

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Andrew Clarkson on April 21, 2016, 9:26 am, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

Hi,

Anthony, I like the expression 'untrained eyes'. Very appropriate when applied to some of these mappers. This is for another debate though.

Andrew,

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Pete Mutlow on April 22, 2016, 3:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings from the Philippines,

*it winds me up that these "re-mappers" delete codes and muck up live data* Please do not paint all remappers with the same brush. As in all trades, we will get the good and bad, but generalizing in my view is wrong.

Yes, as another string to my bow, I used to remap vehicles generally for performance and economy. All my maps were professionally produced, tried and tested. I very rarely had a problem and if I did, it was put right immediately. I also got involved with a few DPF deletes. And always at the request of the customer. I always explained that at the time it was no problem with current MOT tests but I could not guarantee the future. The stock answer I got was to proceed with the MAP delete, and the future would take care of itself. The end result was a better driving car and the customer was saving a lot of money.

However, in saying all that, I do feel sorry for the customer who unwittingly buys a DPF delete car. His first MOT with the vehicle can bring a nasty surprise and his wallet will be hit hard. There must be thousands of these cars about. But in my experience, most customers with a remapped, DPF deleted car advertise that fact as a selling point. So the new owner is generally aware.

Regards to all

Pete M

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Kevin Apps on April 22, 2016, 3:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Kevin Apps

Pete
"DPF deleted car advertise that fact as a selling point." far from a selling point and certainly not
now.
All DPF off cars i have seen come with a "for off
road only waiver" so the re-mapper certainly knows
it,s illegal.
Kev.

Mapping out is a criminal offence, !!

Posted by tony bickers on April 22, 2016, 10:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Anthony Bickers

I see this on so many forums, EGR delete, DPF delete after a fecking great big hole has been punched through the middle of the DPF, the DPF is not the fault, it is an engine running issue that has caused the DPF to fail, My Audi A4 has 100000 miles on it, 170 hp , gets premium fuel with forte additives, soot loading not increased from 40% from when I bought car, DPF is not the criminal, it is engine faults, !!

(no subject)

Posted by UKAT5143 on April 22, 2016, 11:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Pete Mutlow on April 23, 2016, 5:36 am, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Peter Mutlow

Kevin,

What you say is correct now, but wasn't in my time. I doubt if there is much of a market for DPF deleting now.

Tony, Pity you cannot be more constructive with your reply and resort to negative comments. You are better than that. Also, *DPF is not the criminal, it is engine faults, !! * In some cases that may be the case, but I suspect in the majority of cases the vehicle is not driven appropriately for the DPF to work.

Off to the beach for another beer. With my bulging wallet!

Regards

Pete M

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Kevin Apps on April 23, 2016, 9:25 am, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Kevin Apps

Pete

"What you say is correct now, but wasn't in my time" are you saying you never used the term "for off-road use only" on any of your DPF delete jobs?

Kev.

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Pete Mutlow on April 24, 2016, 2:27 am, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Peter Mutlow

Kev,

Certainly not. I advised the customers as previously stated. The vehicles passed the MOT's which is all that mattered at the time. The ruling concerning tampering with DPF's came later. That is my point.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by sean savage on April 25, 2016, 10:58 am, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Sean Savage

Ok cause of most blocked dpf filters is mrs smith driving her 2.0tdi audi to the school and shops every day and using husbands car for long runs then when hubby gets in her car he thinks "i'll give it a clear out" thrashes the arse off it which actually drastrically increases soot loading.
A good 40 mile run at 3000rpm every couple of weeks in my opinion would drop issues by 70%.

Now before we all jump on the "save the earth" band wagon please tell me just how much shit "polution" 1 return plane flight from manchester to turkey gives out in relation to a vehicle with no dpf filter on it??

So now to the re-mapping issue.
i see both sides of the coin here in a perfect world we repair or replace the required component ok this i agree with and understand.
I had a 20.tdi A4 in last week with high soot loading i took vcds and went on a 35 mile run got soot loading from 22g to 8g but would not come out of limp or go any lower.
Right go new dpf required.
OK we have the issue again do we fit after market dpf filter to this which we all know are rarely fit for purpose and shit quality (£325)
if we do the customer will be back screaming in another 12 months with just the same issue and makes us look bad.
OK fit genuine £1238+vat now these are a pig to change so £150 labour (£1665:60) providing temp sensors come out also.

Or the dpf can be removed insides removed and ecu remapped and dpf delete carried out (by someone who is capeable and knows his stuff) customer knows he may have potential "teething issues" and is aware of just what will be done. will it pass and mot they ask. yes because we cannot see the dpf has been removed.

the dpf removal etc completed costs £450 and you will never have any dpf issues again no matter what your wifes driving style.

The customer was given all these options and went for a remap. i put him in touch with the people i know who do it right the car was done and drove perfect with no issues customer came back and tipped me £30.

Now i am not saying remapping is correct at all but with the price of new dpf filters and if this is the way your going to go you are going to get very little work in the real world no recomendations to other family memebers about your honesty etc

I am ready to be shot down in flames now but i am sorry i will give customers all the options in every repair scenario and let them make the decision.

sean

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Peter Warman on April 25, 2016, 12:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

Hi Sean

That's a good post and probably sums up the current state of play regarding the removal of a DPF's

It does put things in perspective, in the USA VW are going to have to buy back 600,000 vehicles because they will be unable (or impossible) to fix the excessive emission, but in the EU they may have found a legal loop hole that gets them a get out of jail card

If it ever goes to court I am sure VW will bring up the fact that although their vehicles emit higher emissions than they should, they are going ask questions as to why the EU and their respective Governments have allowed probably 100,000 diesel (or possibly millions) vehicles across the EU (plus non EU states) to have their DPF's removed and remapped by Independent Garages causing excessive amount of soot into the air we breath, should they not be held to account as well? I am sure they will print your post off as evidence that it goes on

It could take many years of legal wrangling before VW get around to a fix for their dodgy vehicles (allegedly), will customers want them fixed? do customers care?........just fine VW a few billion for deception and move on

With regards to aircraft I totally agree, plenty of talk about vehicle pollution, but the aircraft emissions are always kept off the TV, probably the biggest threat to our health on the planet. I watched a program the other week that showed the Virgin flight that was on its way to Las Vagas but had to return due to a landing gear fault, that was not before it circled Sussex to Devon dumping 100 tons of un-burnt aviation fuel into the atmosphere ready for millions to breath this carcinogenic stuff in....terrible really, but this info is swept under the carpet to protect the extremely lucrative air transport market, lets bash the motor trade, much easier

Peter

PS: Regarding our MOT diesel emission testing, it will take years and great expense to equip testing stations with new sophisticated test equipment, by the time it's off and running most of the Euro 5 vehicles including ones with DPF removed will be on the scrap heap, Euro 6 will need the new technology for testing, but may not be so easy to remove DPF and remap, the Telematics will tell the dealer someone's been poking around in my software......HELP!!

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Anthony Pickering on April 25, 2016, 1:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

Just to make a point clear, i am not "tarring" re-mappers with the same brush, some re-mappers do a good job. unfortunately its the people who try and delete egr's and the like in the vain hope of fixing the vehicle in front of them which makes the re-map trade look rather shady.

To the re-mappers, could you diagnose a running fault on a vehicle with half (or more) live data pids missing/incorrect and trouble codes removed, with confidence in your diagnosis. In my opinion its almost impossible.

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Jon Morgan on April 25, 2016, 2:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Jon Morgan

I'm with Ant.
The reason that this DPF removal trade has taken off is because there is no licensing to prevent it.

It is illegal, it is dodgy & it is a pain in the arse to diagnose a vehicle thats had a frontal lobotomy performed on it by a remapper with little knowledge of the knock on effect of his work.

The Audi we had in was handed back to the owner with a suggestion of a new ECU and a DPF fitted for us to proceed to diagnose a vehicle which behaves normally not in some pscyzophrenic lobotomised manner which has it running in limp with no DTC's logged & PIDs missing.

The car which currently stands it's owner to the tune of £3000 of half arsed repair attempts has now gone to auction - coming to a workshop near you soon with no previous repair history.....How are you going to diagnose that?, you'll be 1 hour in before it starts to dawn on you that this is one sick automobile.

Roll on technician licensing

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Pete Mutlow on April 25, 2016, 2:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"
Peter Mutlow

Yes.....agree with Peter. An excellent and honest post from Sean. But, lets get this right. This is not a perfect world and its not a safety issue. All decent techs are honest with their customers and have their interests at heart. However, sometimes its damned if you do...or damned if you don't. Not the perfect world....but the real world.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by Jon Morgan on April 25, 2016, 5:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

That didn't take long, the A3 has already been booked in at another diagnosticians for repair.

Currently the 5th workshop to take a look at it.

Interestingly I was given only half of the biblical story of this vehicles incredible chequered history.

Parts bill so far:

Injectors
Head Gasket
Turbo
DPF Off - (Not sure where this happened in the parts blunderbus repair system as no receipt for it exists

)
Cam Cover
Another Cam Cover due to the first one breaking during fitment
Another Turbo ordered in case the Euro one was faulty - Still in the boot apparently.

Looks like our quote for a new DPF & ECU was a bit expensive, so this was hauled away from us dribbling & farting trying to remember whether it was originally born as an A3 or a Trabant

This is getting very interesting.......

Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?

Posted by tony bickers on April 25, 2016, 8:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Is it all change for Diesel Testing?"

At the end of the day, any EGR DPF map out is illegal, it reclassifies the emmission tax status of that motor,I can see this being clamped down on hard.

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